I expect you already know about this site, set up by Tory Peter Oborne:
boris-johnson-lies.com/
I'm looking forward to people saying they knew what they were voting for 
Trying to get through prolonged/complicated grief
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The Jewish voice. The BBC’s coverage of antisemitism charges against the Labour Party has been both unbalanced and uncritical
(129 Posts)Jews, antisemitism and Labour – a letter to the BBC
Fri 6 Dec 2019
5th December 2019
To Tony Hall, Director General of the BBC
cc: Fran Unsworth and Tracey Henry
URGENT – “Is the BBC Antisemitic?”
We need to register with you our deep concern that, once again, and in the closing stages of an acrimonious election campaign, the BBC’s coverage of antisemitism charges against the Labour Party has been both unbalanced and uncritical. Your reporting today of the Jewish Labour Movement (JLM)’s repetition of its flimsily-based charges against the Party that it used to support falls disastrously short of the Corporation’s own formal standards of accuracy and balance.
This represents what we can only call a flagrant breach, and of all times during a general election campaign, of the BBC’s legal commitment to due impartiality and fairness.
Over recent months, and with no remission during the election campaign, coverage of allegations of Labour antisemitism has featured repeatedly in the BBC News, and often as the lead item. In news programmes the allegations have been reported as quasi-factual, with no indication that they are fiercely contested. In more discursive formats such as the Today programme or Newsnight, presenters have consistently adopted a negative, attacking stance towards anyone who questions the basis of the allegations. In complete contrast, those making the allegations, usually based on hearsay rather than personal experience, are supplied with leading questions and softball follow-up.
Jews are as diverse as any other substantial group in society. Yet people whose representative status is highly doubtful are routinely presented by the BBC as ‘representatives of the Jewish community’. Surely you can ensure that your broadcasting staff know the facts and convey them appropriately. The Board of Deputies, for example, has no supervised electoral process – and in any case its synagogue-based membership covers no more than one third of the UK’s Jewish population. Secular Jews make up at least 50% of British Jews and have no voice through the Board of Deputies.
In particular the voices of the large numbers of Jews who are Party members, who know how atypical the quite rare examples of antisemitic behaviour in the party are, and who are enthusiastic supporters of a Corbyn-led Labour government have been almost entirely ignored. The BBC has allowed itself to be used as a megaphone for deeply contested charges.
The BBC’s Guidelines state that when a partisan political position is put forward, an opposing one, if it exists, should be broadcast too. The Labour Party does have many Jews who support it and who are prepared to speak out, notably in the organisation Jewish Voice for Labour. Our many requests to be able to present our experience and our perspective are routinely ignored, and in the rare exceptions have never been given equal weighting with the negative voices.
The BBC’s coverage of the JLM’s release of its evidence to the Equalities and Human Rights Commission’s inquiry (into any discrimination in Labour’s processes for handling complaints of antisemitism) is a prime example of the BBC’s systematic imbalance. This deliberately-timed attempted destabilisation of the Labour Party’s position by JLM has appeared in virtually every main news bulletin today, including live coverage – uncontested – of the JLM news conference on BBC News Channel.
The evidence that Jewish Voice for Labour gave to the EHRC inquiry was made public at the time and is publicly available on our web-site. This evidence is directly relevant to your news item but was not even mentioned in today’s extended BBC coverage. It seems that the BBC is treating us as the ‘wrong sort of Jew’.
All Jews are not the same. Asserting that they are is an aspect of antisemitism. The BBC should be ashamed of its record in openness to the multiple voices of British jewry.
By behaving in the way that it has (and today’s JLM coverage is only the latest example) the BBC has, constructively, been contributing to an assiduously promoted anti-Labour agenda.
We look forward to immediate corrective action.
This letter will be published on our website.
Sincerely,
Leah Levane and Jenny Manson, co-chairs JVL
www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/statement/jews-antisemitism-and-labour-a-letter-to-the-bbc/?fbclid=IwAR2bbSO7bduF2zsmKI_Ok27_0d5kKQ16CTVo9kiAZAQuG34ek4L1AAHnoP8
I would add, WW, that I don't believe that any within the LP is only there or even simply proportionately greater than elsewhere in the country. What is there is being dealt with, that which isn't but is an attempt to deflect from the poor Tory record simply can't be dealt with as it doesn't exist.
If you look at the stats on Tory lies in their propaganda I put in my last post - and with 88% of 7,000 being lies I feel propaganda is the correct word - it is not surprising some people are horrified at what they are reading and do not stop to think it may not be true.
It is easy to see why the disparity is so great though. The Labour Party are putting out what they are going to do. They need it to be correct or journalists will challenge them. The Tory Party, on the other hand, are trying to deflect from the fact that they have been in power for nine, nearly ten years. They don't want people to unravel that so to distract they are putting out attack mail and that needs lies to work against another party in the way the Tories want.
Iam64 I believe you live in or near Manchester, where my daughter also lives. Orthodox Jews are more visible there than they are in many other parts of the country and I understand from my daughter that they are sometimes abused. I know that some gravestones were vandalised and there have been threats to people outside synagogues. However, my understanding is that this has been from the local knuckle dragging neo-Nazis. My daughter is a Labour Party member and I believe her when she has told me that she hasn't experienced anti-semiticism from other members. She has a boyfriend from a Muslim family and they have Jewish friends. All of them support Labour.
Where I live, I honestly don't think I know anybody Jewish in my town, but I do have a number of Jewish friends who live in the nearest city. They have told me that they have not experienced anti-semiticism. Most of them support Labour too, but the difference seems to be that we don't have visible little cells of right-wing activists.
I really don't know what to make of it all.
pogs for years you have flogged the same message that hate crime is flourishing in the Labour Party, but apparently no where else.
Don’t you understand how ridiculous that stance is.
I accept that there will be hate crime in the Labour Party, but don’t accept that it is as widespread as you imply. I belong to the Labour Party on the South East coast, and unless there is something very particular about us in the South I have never evidenced such hate crime -ever.
I am not denying that hate crime exists, but in most definitely deny that it is only a problem for the Labour Party.
Accept that and we can have a grownup conversation.
I haven’t read the posts following the one in which I was accused of saying white wave is anti Semitic. I didn’t say that. If I’d thought anything ww posted was AS I’d have said so. My point was merely to say enough
Lemongrove trying to reprimand someone with the line Not all Jews are the same (repeat that to yourself ten times.) somewhat implies that you believe Whitewave to be unknowingly antisemitic and is really unacceptable. Whitewave backs her comments with facts, something I have never known you to do.
When Full Fact looked at the Conservative adverts that were put on Facebook - some 7,000 of them in a couple of days - 88% of them were lies. The Conservatives are running a dirty campaign and everyone, bar a few, are aware of it. You not only don't decry it, but you also join in. In the same period as the 88%, Full Fact found one instance in the Labour Party ads.
Support the dirty party if you chose. Just don't expect us not to call you out on the lies or unproven gossip. You, like the Conservatives, are merely attempting to sow confusion because their record is so dire.
People now say that "all politicians are the same" but there is no equivalence between 88% according to Full Fact and one instance. It would be interesting to have an outside body count the percentage of lies in posts on here. Both in Brexit Tory posts and those from the members who do not support the Tories but are questioning, use clear criteria and definitions and cite the source of their evidence. Would it be the same 88% to one instance Full Fact found between the Tory attack ads and the Labour ads, I wonder?
Wallowing in the Tory filth is some people's idea of what an election is about but I will continue to call out the errors and aggression in the posts on this forum whether you laugh, leave or chose to post.
POGS the denials on here are laughable aren’t they?
And if all else fails their modus operandi is to hurl insults and then accuse others of being aggressive ( now that really is a joke!)
They cannot bear to think that whole swathes of our population will not now vote for the LP, so in their minds it all has to be ‘smears’.
Iam64 is out of this thread, so am I, ......it can become a deniers echo chamber.
I didn't accuse you of anything other than hubris Pogs. The problem is you don't see you are attacking a group you identify as being all the same just in the way some people attack Jews, Muslims, Yorkshire people, the Irish, gipsies and Travellers, etc. Your chosen group to pour your prejudice on are socialists. Remember it wasn't just about the Jews. In Martin Niemoller's poem they came first for the socialists, then the Trade's Unionists, then the Jews, none of whom he spoke out for and then they came for him.
What you are doing by attacking the Labour Party as a whole in this way is not acceptable. It is actually no more acceptable than racism or religiophobia. Taking one group and using a few peoples possible flaws, on the basis of what can only be gossip if unproved, to describe them, is simply not on. It leads to the watering down of the standards of proof before calling people guilty in all aspects of life.
growstuff Tue 10-Dec-19 11:40:21
PS. I would your posting style is aggressive POGS.
Hmmm
I guess you realise that Jon Lansman, who founded Momentum, is Jewish. Is he a "self-hating" Jew?
So you think that Momentum and those around Corbyn are anti-Semitic and that they just mushroomed overnight?
PS. I would your posting style is aggressive POGS.
POGS I haven't been a GN member that long, so I've missed whatever you've posted.
I remain concerned about any form of racism, but I'm still puzzled about what's going on with regards Corbyn. I have tried very hard to judge on facts, but I'm afraid most of what I see is innuendo.
I'd be the first to hold up my hands and admit to being wrong, if there were hard evidence. I find it quite tiresome sifting through the smears, fake news and trivial complaints to find real evidence of institutional anti-semiticism.
That doesn't mean that I'm denying anti-Semitism because I can see that it quite clearly exists, but it's not all coming from anybody with connections with the Labour Party by any means.
GG
To me.
'Posts like yours are getting out of hand on a thread where most people are trying to be careful. We see the attack-dogs of the right in the press. I don't think we need the same tactics on here.'---
GG all I can say to that is you have tried for so many years to portray my posts as aggressive it is water off a ducks back and there will be those who agree with you and others who do not.
I will leave it to the reader to decide who they consider to be
' attack dogs' as you charmingly accuse me of being.
WW
For ' years' since Corbyn became Leader I have raised threads, posted the words from Labour MP's et al who themselves told of the problems surrounding antisemitism/harassment from within and questioned the denial of those including yourself of what has been an issue since Corbyn became the Labour Party Leader re antisemitism/harassment that started from within it's own ranks .
No amount of debate nor production of evidence of what has been stated by those from within the Labour Party who have 'told it as it is' has ever, nor will ever persuade those who elect to deflect away from the problem, elect to deny there is any problem, refuse to accept the correlation between Corbyn and the direction Labour has taken since the Jeremy for Leader/Momentum/Labour Party took over the Labour Party.
I remain of the opinion had Corbyn/Momentum never gained the Leadership and running of the Labour Party it would not have the problems it faces to date.
(Tue 10-Dec-19 10:00:42) To excuse evidence that has been documented, spoken, written and heard by those who are in denial will NEVER alter the mindset of the denier
So your accusations are unproven, not demonstrated by evidence or proper argument to be true or even exist, people have not even been arrested let alone found guilty in a court of law and yet you insist you are right and all those who disagree with you are treated to your latest insult to many on GN of "denier"!
What is it that makes you know you are right when you have absolutely nothing but the wish to be right to back it up? And why do you assume your hubris has to convince people; it simply isn't enough. You would find people guilty just on the say-so of a baying mob. Not the sort of country I want ours to be.
Posts like yours are getting out of hand on a thread where most people are trying to be careful. We see the attack-dogs of the right in the press. I don't think we need the same tactics on here.
You are also wrong in saying it only became an issue when Corbyn became leader.
Miliband was also accused of anti-semitism by the right wing press.
When the evidence of widespread hate crime in the Labour Party is presented to me, and the perpetrators are brought to book, then I will accept what you say pogs but innuendo, and “I said” “ she said” won’t cut it.
For as much as you present “evidence of your cause I can produce just as much denying it. Likewise read everything that is said about the Tory party. The evidence is there in black and white.
Read “Seventytwo Virgins” and be appalled at the language used in that.
The truth is that hate crime is insidious and widespread, but by weaponising it, and insisting only a certain group in society are guilty is as bad as ignoring it entirely.
growstuff Sat 07-Dec-19 20:22:54
Evidence that anti-semiticism has been rife in the Labour Party for years, please lemongrove!---
For years even on Gransnet there has been thread after thread discussing the rise of antisemitism within the Labour Party and it only became an issue when Corbyn became leader of the Jeremy for for Leader/Momentum/Labour Party. That was the time when problems started and reports of harassment/intimidation and antisemitism flourished.
NO it was not the right wing press, NO it was not the BBC nor any other TV Station, NO it was not the Tory Party nor any other party contriving conspiracy theories it WAS the Labour Party Members of Parliament and councillors et al themselves who were telling / relating the problems that they were having to deal with.
The deflection of the Tory Party certainly has it's place and antisemitism /Islamophobia /any racism is wrong, plain and simple. That too started when Tory Sayeeda Warsi raised the issue and was not mentioned before.
To excuse evidence that has been documented, spoken, written and heard by those who are in denial will NEVER alter the mindset of the denier .
At a Labour Party conference a female MP , a Jew , needed a police escort to enter the conference hall.
Well WWM2.....you won’t accept it from me but maybe you will from Iam64 !
Not all Jews are the same ( repeat that to yourself ten times.)
The present LP have a problem ( only denied on social media) with anti-semitism.Everyone in the RW knows this and accepts it’s the case, even Corbyn and those at the top of the LP.
Not everything is about point scoring, on every thread we have on anti-semitism I feel strongly about it, having worked and known many Jewish friends.
There are many instances ( if you want facts) so do go and look them up, or is it a case of if posters don’t supply links then you will continue to deny it’s a problem?
Isn’t it sad that so many can’t face the thought of a Corbyn government ( and not just Jewish people either!)
Well thank you for your reply iam64
I note that you have nothing more to say on the matter, so I would just like to reply to your post and we can leave it at that.
First I am sorry that you have not given any explanation for your personal remark, but can I assume then that you made it in error and the implied remark that I was anti-Semitic was wrong? If that is indeed the case, a bigger person would apologised.
Secondly, I have spent most of my life reading, researching and analysing the whole area of racism and minority politics.I recently did a course on anti-semitism run by the Holocaust museum in Israel. It is enlightening and gives me the confidence in my opinions and “allows” me to criticise the Israeli government without worrying that my criticism is somehow anti-Semitic.
I am not nor have ever been a racist. But I reserve the right to defend anyone who is accused of racism or anti-semitism wrongly. If one can’t do that then there is something extremely wrong. Likewise if a person belonging to a minority group is fearful in any way I reserve the right to ask why and whether those fears can be dealt with. If we can’t do that then there is something very wrong.
I am sorry that you are unwilling to give a further explanation but as you implied you have nothing more to say on the matter.
I didn't respond to WW because I wasn't on line, this is me checking in this morning.
Without wishing to get into another pointless exchange, I'll simply repeat that Jewish people, like every other group are different.
The fact that some still support Labour is a relief to me. The fact that so many Jewish friends who have been life long Labour voters fear AS in the party remains a fact. It's obviously not a fact accepted by many posters on gransnet but that doesn't mean it isn't true.
I'm female, have been so all my life - my lived experience isn't irrelevant when I discuss anything related to being a woman. Why does the lived experience and belief of many Jewish people get accepted and that of others rejected. I read somewhere recently, those who fear anti semitism within the LP are simply 'the wrong kind of Jews'.
That's it from me folks.
For once I agree GGMK3. Undocumented, vague comments. No evidence. No proof.
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