Well done Lawrence Fox!

Growstuff,I think it's entirely reasonable to say "some" people with left leaning inclinations, at certain times label those who don't share their point of view as the "far right", but equally so do those on the right, as you say "Marxist" and "lefties" all terms used in a pejorative way. Lets face it, if GN is a microcosm of society, it happens all the time, Twitter I imagine is far worse.

growstuff there’s been discussions on here for days on racism. It’s gone on and on ad nauseam and frankly most posters views are so entrenched it’s unlikely anyone will change their mind. Typically anyone that sees racism everywhere reacts wildly to anyone that disagrees. The LF debacle perfectly illustrates this. He gave his opinion. He didn't believe the treatment of MM was down to racism. He objected to any criticism of a person of colour being called racism. He was also asked which of the Labour candidates he thought was best for the job. After answering, Keir Starmer, he became frustrated when SC asked why he didn’t choose one of the women. Since then he’s had death threats etc.
He was correct when saying talking about his white privilege is racist. Calling someone gammon is racist. The frustration he exhibited is felt by many. Being pulled up on every little thing (why not one of the women?), being hectored, lectured and told you’re a racist, sexist and ever ist inbetween is so draining and frankly boring. It wouldn’t be so bad if there wasn’t so much hypocrisy. An OP on another thread calks Priti Patel ugly because she is conservative. The same person thinks criticism of MM is racist. What is the point of anymore discussion on racism?

growstuff You mean comments like “Your argument is ridiculous” that you made to me when I tried to put a point of view.

Or maybe refusing to acknowledge when you stated categorically I was wrong, but actually you were wrong. I awaited your acknowledgement of that. Still waiting,

Is that more being more interested in winning than engaging in genuine debate?

Apologies! You didn't call people "lefties" (I'm reading something else on the same subject). However, you accused people with "left leaning orthodoxies" of using labels. My point is that people with "right leaning orthodoxies" do the same thing.

People with entrenched orthodoxies don't generally contribute anything to rational debate.

TerriBull Sadly, the level of intellectual debate isn't very high and people are reduced to flinging fairly meaningless insults. It works both ways, with people being labelled "lefties" (as you have just done) or commies or Marxists, etc.

Unfortunately, genuine issues become forgotten as each side becomes more interested in proving they are "right" and winning.

Very well said M0nica, succinctly put and accurate.

It seems to me that the far right label is attached to anyone who opposes left leaning orthodoxies. Do we have secret police who routinely round up people for expressing a dissenting view? Although with that in mind, I do remember a young mother, apropos of a Twitter spat, misgendered a transwoman and was subsequently accused of a "hate crime" taken away and locked up for a night. So it seems the wrong terminolgy can land you in hot water..........not sure those grounds would align with far right doctrine though. "Dictatorship anyone" to quote another poster, but in a different context of course!

MY personal feeling is that there should be serious discussions about racism and what it actually is and how it affects people - and, more importantly, what can or should be done.

There's an agenda that white males are discriminated against, which I find risible. In the UK white males have had the upper hand forever and they don't like their authority being challenged and usurped, so they're fighting back.

However, Question Time, which has become a forum for various "plants" and second rate panellists isn't the place to have a serious discussion. I rarely watch it these days because it seems to be all about entertainment rather than a place for serious debate.

Laurence Fox isn't an expert on anything. He behaved like a petulant child auditioning for a local drama club play. My guess is he was chosen because the producers knew he would stimulate what has subsequently happened. I don't think social media and people shouting at each other and hurling insults is the kind of debate which is needed.

There's actually a discussion to be had there Chestnut. It depends on the interpretation of "far right". "Nazi" is a short form of National Socialist. Some would argue that Nazism was for and was supported by the people and was, therefore, democratic. (BTW "democracy" is another misunderstood term, which has been hi-jacked for a specific purpose).

I cringe when I read "far right" used as a label because it really isn't a term with a single definition. I also cringe when I see "Marxist" thrown about as an insult because most people don't understand what Marx was all about, despite the various interpretations since Marx's death. I cringe even more when I see terms such as "cultural Marxism" and "left-wing Nazis" (!). What on earth are they supposed to describe?

Calling some one 'Far right' merely means that the poster disagrees with them. Comparing them with the Nazis, means the poster strongly disagrees and cannot think of anything nastier to say. It makes the poster feel good as well. Virtue signalling.

As soon as people accuse someone of being 'far right' you know they're trying to cause outrage and indignation. What were Hitler and the Nazis if they were not 'far right'?

As soon as posters evoke Hitler and the Nazis, you know they’ve lost the argument ?

Perhaps you could tell us what remarks to back up your accusation.

Eglantine I get you

Your post reminded me of what my dear father had endured from childhood until the day he died.

You don't have to be a member of the NF to have the same convictions as them and LF's remarks seem remarkably similar to those made by the likes of Nick Griffen of the BNP.

If LF is 'far right' then what were Hitler and the Nazis? What a ridiculous thing to say. He may be right wing but very few people are far right except extremists and I'm sure he's not a member of the National Front. People are flinging accusations around like confetti.

A couple of articles I've read today are positioning LF as being far-right, politically . Seems fairly accurate to me. Both of him and his supporters.

Spot on GrannyGravy13 exactly what I was going to say. Any services should recruit according to ability only and if you can't reach the required standard then you don't get in.

Libby Purves would also learn something from the Reni Eddo Lodge book I mentioned up thread!!

No idea why it is being reported now, but surely positive discrimination is wrong.

People should have a level playing field regardless of colour or gender?

If I am ever in a position that I need to be rescued by the fire service, the thought furthest from my mind would be race/gender, only that they were capable of doing the job.

With reference to Libby Purves's article in which she suggests that there is now an obsession with racism, which is akin to being the new bigotry.

I see in the I today that she has also said the cost of gender pay disputes at the BBC "chokes creativity". She was referring to Samira Ahmed's successful claim for equal pay, saying she should not necessarily be paid as much as her male colleague. The BBC's argument for paying Jeremy Vine significantly more for doing a very similar job to Ahmed was that he had a "glint in his eye" when presenting. I think that was a feeble defence and so did the tribunal.

Purves states that the compensation awarded to Ahmed is "a lot of money". Yet, it is a lot of money and it could be argued that actors, sports people, broadcasters, entertainers, etc, etc, get too much money. I would probably agree with that. However, that is how capitalism works, and why should certain groups of people be singled out for different working conditions and pay than other people working in the same organisation?

It seems to me that Ms Purves has a bit of a bee in her bonnet about a lot of things.

growstuff I have absolutely no idea at all why it has just become a story ?

GG it’s the West Midlands Fire and Rescue Service and they introduced a new recruitment system over 2 years ago. Apparently what they wanted to do was increase the number of both women and BME firefighters. It’s a multi stage recruitment process( as you’d expect) and after getting through stage 1 ( reaction tests) the next stage is some reasoning/verbal/ numerical tests iirc. White men have to score 7 and women and BME 6. Then it’s on to the next stage where, like the first stage, it’s all equal again. Seems a bit odd to me. Sexist and racist. Better not tell LF - he might combust.

GrannyGravy This recruitment process started in September 2017. Why has it only just come to light?

Reni Eddo Lodge "Why I don't talk to White People about Race anymore"

The title is off putting and in my view not helpful which is a great shame. The book is very well worth a read if anyone wishes to gain further understanding of what is being referred to when people say that Meghan has suffered Racism or comment on white privilege. The book is challenging but by the end is acknowledging the reasons why white people might express frustration.

Worth a read if you are interested and LF would learn something but suspect he woudn't read it!