Well done Lawrence Fox!

It was a reply to Jura. It took me so long the debate moved on.

Oh dear, full of typos. Well, what can you expect.......?

tickingbird Even the Guardian has Conservatives writing for it. She most definitely is a Conservative (with a capital "C").

But don’t you see, when you are saying “this is an opinion of a person who is black, therefore it carries weight because they are black” you are reducing them to one physical factor of their being and minimising, at least, all their other,more important attributes.

However much you might say you take “the rest” into “consideration” (which of itself smacks a little of patronage) the factor you consider me f most significance is the colour of their skin,

What hacks me off is that people such as my MP and Sherelle Jacobs can claim that racism doesn't exist, so people think that others who have suffered racism are lying.

My daughter's partner is dark brown, which isn't surprising as his parents are African. They're also Muslim and my daughter's partner has a Muslim name. He went to a prestigious independent school, has an MSc and a well-paid job. Nevertheless, he's suffered racism and even ended up in hospital after being attacked. My late mother was horribly racist. Although she would never have said anything directly to my daughter, she used to speculate about what colour any child would be and obviously disapproved about "mixing genes" (as she called it). That, to my mind, was racist and it used to upset my daughter.

Growstuff. I’m in a rush but will get back to you later. I scanned your post and noticed this person ysed to write for The Guardian!! Hardly conservative credentials!

Yes Doogledog. I wasn’t aware you’d asked me a question therefore I couldn’t answer. Would you mind posting the time you posed this question and I’ll answer or is the question on your recent post about why I didn’t answer a question, in which case I’ve just answered it.

tickingbird Sorry, I'm sure, that I didn't score full marks!

I'll explain why it's relevant that she's a Conservative.

My MP, Kemi Badenoch, is black and is always denying racism. She is forever claiming that only Labour supporters cry racism, even though she uses her ethnicity to promote herself. She tries to promote herself as a black immigrant from Nigeria, who has made it good through her own efforts, when the reality is that she was born in the UK (because her mother came to London to give birth) and both her parents are medical academics with high-powered jobs.

Sherelle Jacobs used to write for the Guardian, which is how I'd heard of her, and used to do exactly the same thing. Like my MP, she obviously doesn't come from a poor background, as she was educated at the fee-paying St Paul's Girls School. I don't have a problem with that, but I do have a problem with her claiming that she somehow speaks for black or mixed-race people. In some ways, her background isn't that dissimilar from Lawrence Fox's.

tickingbird Is this the 'question' you are referring to? You wouldn’t have any problem with a white, middle class intellectual lecturing you on racism and the varying nuances of such but you won’t accept it in reverse; that is telling you what isn’t racism Sorry didn't realise it was angled at me.
I don't think I have said anywhere I accept anyone lecturing me on anything, but if someone has studied the subject and was giving me evidence based facts then of course I would listen to them. But if anyone just shouts at me "It's NOT anything" I tend to ignore them. Should they also be someone who it is likely has little or no experience of the subject under discussion, i.e a man telling me women are not subjected to domestic violence, then their views carry even less weight, no matter how loud they shout.
Answer enough?

Eglantine - a black or coloured person's opinion on racism experienced by .... black or coloured person - of course has more weight- together with the rest.

Are you saying that a handicapped person's opinion of the perception and experience of the treatment and prejudice experienced by people with a handicap- should have the same weight as someone who has never suffered handicap?

tickingbird On the subject of unanswered questions, would you mind letting us know whether you think that a comment about wondering if one's ideas about manners are out of kilter equates to 'an attack of the vapours', please?

But when you say a “black” person’s opinion must carry more weight you are saying the colour of their skin is the defining factor rather than their culture, their experience, their intellect, their temperament.

Is that not racist in itself?

Trisher You always manage to avoid answering difficult questions. I asked you a question yesterday regarding white, middle class intellectuals which you ignored. Eglantine21 just asked another and you avoided that.

You discuss and sometimes you agree to differ Eglantine21 It's what reasonable people do. You do not shout "It's NOT racism." and bang your head on the desk. Not unless you are an unreasonable spoiled brat.

Just going back a bit. As growstuff says, black people don’t all have the same opinion. Indeed to infer that there is a homogenous “black” opinion is racist in itself.

So my question to trisher is How do you decide which black person has the right opinion? Is one black persons viewpoint of more value than another.

Baggs Do you mean this article:

"Obsession with racism is the new bigotry
libby purves

"Blaming Meghan’s flight on prejudice is absurd and simplistic in a nation that stands out for its tolerance and diversity............."

I can't access the rest of it because there is a pay wall. Perhaps you wouldn't mind giving a brief summary of why she feels there is an obsession with racism - and leaps to the conclusion that it is the "new bigotry".

Would you mind giving a brief summary of what she says regarding our "obsession" with racism.

It seems that only certain forms of racism are worth identifying and discussing whereas other forms - which don't just relate to hurt feelings but which materially affect people's lives - are more often than not ignored. The issue of non-white people being under-represented and discriminated against in a number of areas has been present for years, with very little mainstream comment or action taken.

Doodledog Please put your smelling salts away. If you think LF’s behaviour was enough to bring on an attack of the vapours you need to watch some of these debates more often.

I am not about to faint. I said that I was beginning to wonder if my standards of manners were out of kilter, which is really not the same thing at all, is it? A very mild comment is mistranslated as a suggestion that I am having 'an attack of the vapours'.

I think your comment shows how some of the posts on here are indicative of the way in which people simply see what they want to see (or deliberately twist people's words), and pay no attention to what is actually said.

growstuff Thank you for your considered response. I take on board what you’ve said. Yes that it is her name. However, bringing political bias into the mix, mentioning she’s a conservative, and therefore must be angling for kudos somewhat ruined what otherwise would have been a good post.

She is of course entitled to her opinion. I don't think the treatment of MM is being discussed here but having some experience of the very real racism to be found in some sections of society I think the MSM may have been playing to the lowest market.
As far as LF goes I would really like to take him into my city centre when the EDL are having a march, and make him listen to the calls for sending people home whilst students from all over the world walk by. Then he'd see how 'lovely' some bits of this country really are.

tickingbird I don't like identity politics in any form. I don't agree with people who claim that Lawrence Fox has no right to judge any more than I think a black woman can make that judgement about another person. Was it Sherelle Jacobs BTW? I think she's the DT's token mixed race female journalist and has been wheeled out for this kind of thing before.

My personal feeling is that Lawrence Fox would have been more convincing if he'd stated his reasons and not done. the luvvie thing of banging his head on the table.

I also don't think it was simply a case of racist abuse, although I've seen for myself some of the nasty comments, which were made about Meghan. I read comments claiming that she didn't do the "royal" thing of standing on the steps of the hospital because the baby was black. I also remember Rachel Johnson's article in the DT, in which she talked about exotic DNA. There have been undertones of racism in other comments, which are much harder to prove. Nevertheless, I do accept that there was a combination of factors.

As far as I'm concerned, people can read the evidence for themselves, whether they're black, white or green. Sherelle Jacobs is an up and coming Conservative-supporting star, who is trying to make a name for herself and it doesn't surprise me that she would disassociate herself from people who claim racism, whom she probably sees as "lefties" (as does my black, female Conservative MP).

Precisely Trisher so say what you that the black female DOESN’T think the criticism of MM is racist.

Doodledog Please put your smelling salts away. If you think LF’s behaviour was enough to bring on an attack of the vapours you need to watch some of these debates more often. Have you read some of these threads? Have you seen some of the stuff he’s been called on here? He didn't shout over her at all. He merely showed his exasperation at this constant determination by some to be offended, either for themselves or more often than not on behalf of someone else.

He’s out of line because he insisted he was right He behaved disrespectfully

What he did that has certain sections of the population up in arms is have the nerve and guts to disagree and show the exasperation many in this country feel . He’s being treated as if he admitted membership of the Ku Klux clan. One poster on here even said he’s inciting racism on the terraces. It’s utter madness.

For those who think a black person's opinion shouldn't carry more weight would you have the same opinion if women's rights or anti-semitism were being discussed? That is a woman or a Jewish person would have no deeper insight into the problem?
EllanVannin I think it's a look he cultivates

Sorry, by 'he' above, I was referring to LF,in case that wasn't clear.

Nobody is able to make a call on whether the treatment of Meghan was racism, as it was/is a collection of things said and done by so many different people, with numerous different views.

IMO he is highly unlikely to have experience of racism, any more than he has experience of the sort of life lived by the vast majority of people, and he most certainly does not come over as an empathetic soul, but he is not being 'vilified' for that. As he says, he can't help his birth (even though he could work on his arrogance if he felt inclined).

He is out of line not because he is ill informed, but because he did not allow the audience member to speak, shouted over her, insisted that his point of view was right, and behaved disrespectfully.

I'm beginning to wonder if my standards of manners are out of kilter, but I did not bring up my children to behave like this, and would be very disappointed in them if they had.