Well done Lawrence Fox!

I just thought the chap looked ill ! Couldn't get over it.

I find it very interesting that you say that. LF has been vilified for saying Meghan’s treatment wasn’t racist because as a white, privileged male he wasn’t informed enough to make that judgement. Therefore, a black female’s opinion in Trisher’s and, no doubt yours, view should have a much more informed view.

Obviously the goalposts move continually with yourself and others. I do enjoy the constant hypocrisy and lack of awareness. It’s become rather fascinating.

Why is a black person's opinion any more important than anybody else's? Black people don't all have the same opinions.

Why's it interesting?

Interesting that a black, female columnist for The Telegraph was on tv earlier and she didn’t believe racism was behind any of the criticisms aimed at Meghan.

Good articles by Clare Foges and Libby Purves this morning in the Times, covering all the salient points that this thread brings up. Wish I could write as well as they do.

I share that understanding too Eloethan. It's not recognising the differences which are the problem - it's the fact that there is a power imbalance.

As an example, the Liverpool football player Mo Salah is known as the "Egyptian King" by fans and one of the chants includes the words "if he scores another few, I'll be Muslim too". He's a local hero. Salah regularly bows to Allah after scoring a goal - as did Mo Farah on the athletics track. People are aware of the differences.

However, Salah has also suffered racist abuse and at least one person has been prosecuted for tweeting that he's a suicide bomber. Action is also being taken against some Chelsea fans for racist chanting. In those cases, the differences were being weaponised and that is racism.

My understanding of racism is that it is prejudice plus power.

Most people have certain prejudices but they don't necessarily have the power to significantly affect someone's life by exercising that prejudice. It has already been demonstrated that non-white people in largely white-run countries are far more likely to be discriminated against in the job market and in housing because of that combination of prejudice plus power.

A non-white person may be prejudiced against me because I am white, and I would find that unfair and hurtful. But, generally speaking, he or she would be far less likely to be able to determine where I may live or what job I can get.

Baggs I think this thread demonstrates that liberal values are less abundant than is claimed. Some people are more inclined to think things rather than say them - that is until someone like Fox opens his mouth, then suddenly people feel they have permission to air their racism.

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/28/people-of-african-descent-face-dire-picture-of-racism-in-eu

Amazed at Finland

People researching this issue say that levels of racial discrimination within, for instance, employment and housing, have been found to be at a similar, fairly high, level as in the 1960's.

I'm actually quite shocked about this. I thought liberal attitudes had increased in my lifetime.

Trisher.
That is exactly what I was going to say about Oprah Winfrey, she was brought up in real poverty. She eventually did well because she was very clever and perservered.

Eloethan
Most HR departments are acutely aware of discrimination laws and would not place their company in the position if being sued for discrimination, that is not to say small businesses may not discriminate, just as some do towards women if child bearing age.
With regard to LF, I think those who throw the racist term around so freely just to create a self satisfying sense of outrage more problematic than what LF stated.
True racism is despicable, but not exclusive to white Brits. Turn the argument around to say an African country and the same issues would be there and more acutely so because apart from skin colour, a persons tribe, country of birth and other issues come into play.
Those who live in multicultural areas of the UK know that many who come to live here bring their own racism and deep prejudices with them. The analogy of racism being a white privilege issue only is very far off the mark.

And to bring things back to LF do those who approve of his comments not see how such remarks fuel the despicable racist behaviour on the terraces?

Yes, racist abuse is in a different league to “the other stuff”, tickingbird. Black players get all the “other stuff” as well as bananas and monkey chants.

Yes because the black players get both. So if people dont like their football they throw stuff at them, if people dont like the colour of their skin they throw bananas and do monkey chants.

I’m off for the night now. I really do have better stuff to do.

The white strikers are having bottles and coins thrown at them. Having stitches in their heads. David Beckham spoke of how they would shout they hoped his kids would die of cancer. It’s all despicable but that’s a certain mentality and any decent person finds it disgusting. They say and do whatever they think will put them off. I think the Australian’s call it sledging. I know the banana throwing is racism but is it worse than the other stuff?

Tangents are part of conversation. What I was trying to convey is the reality of the situation. Whilst people are saying can they criticise a black striker those black strikers are having bananas thrown at them.

Oh lord- bees in bonnets? Or will that start another little tangent?

It’s the ‘isms’ being applied to any criticism!

Sorry are people saying that black football players dont experience racism because other players get things thrown at them. What kind of analysis is that?

Joelsnan You seem to misunderstand. The researchers deliberately sent out two "dummy" CVs with identical contents but with different applicant names. In the cases the research highlighted, the imaginary person with the CV with the English-sounding name was invited for interview, whereas the imaginary person with the identical - save for the name - CV was not. This was not an isolated incident - it happened enough times for it to be deemed reliable and statistically significant. Are you seriously saying that university-conducted research is of no more value than people's personal perceptions and opinions? Anyway, how could you possibly know whether your name on a CV has been perceived as "foreign sounding" or has affected your chances of being called for interview? The anecdotal evidence of thousands of non-white people relating their experiences of racism seems to carry no weight unless backed up by statistical evidence so why should the anecdotal theorising of one person be considered worthy of consideration?

What fault are you going to find with the under-cover investigation carried out at London estate agents?

Baggs People researching this issue say that levels of racial discrimination within, for instance, employment and housing, have been found to be at a similar, fairly high, level as in the 1960's. Yet there are many people who seek to either deny the fact or minimise the whole issue. That, in my view, demonstrates their own racism.

And change presentation too- and again, on the same register.

It is possible to say exactly the same, on the same linguistic register - but differently. Same experience, same qualifications and grades, etc. One skill I often practised with our 6th Formers.

My guess (although this is something of a side issue) is that both CVs matched the essential and desirable qualifications and experienced required, so maybe not identical, but both should have been shortlisted. In any case, even if one was rejected for 'copying', why was it so often the one with the 'ethnic' sounding name?

Also, elsewhere on GN, people are accusing one another of bullying. Whether or not the 'bully' realised that this is what she was doing, if someone feels bullied is it anyone else's place (black or white, bullied or not) to tell her how she feels?

Whether or not the 'bully' accepts that the motive was bullying, if someone feels bullied it would make sense to ask why she felt like that and look at the behaviour to see whether it could be modified, not to shout her down and insist that It Is Not Bullying!!