Sajid now says 'no alignment post Brexit' ...

No, it doesn't make sense. It's "Project Fear".

Cunco It is certain "leavers" themselves who claim they knew exactly what they were voting for!! Unfortunately, they do seem to find it very difficult to articulate, which is incredibly frustrating to those who still think it was the wrong decision. Ah well! At least they own it now - no excuses.

^ Had we voted to remain, I don't doubt that we would have joined at some point, as Heseltine and Major have said and Blair implied.^

Cameron obtained a permanent opt out from the euro, to be written into the treaties. Why would we have opted in at 'some point' after that? Your assertion makes no sense, Cunco

Er, I think you'll find MaizieD if you look back at this thread, that I was quoting jura2 - it was she who said the only member allowed.

But you repeated what she said, Opal and cited it as a reason for your Leave vote. Had you been as knowledgeable as Leavers claim to be you would have known that it was wrong, not agreed with it.

'Allowing' never came into it. The UK chose not to participate in the euro and Schengen. Which they had every right and entitlement to do, being a free and sovereign member of the EU. (Who helped to write the rules....)

To me, sovereignty means having independent power within our own Parliament, the one which we elect. Keeping our own currency, though, is not a symbol of independence, it is a tool of economic policy. A single currency imposes one exchange rate on all which may not suit all regions, especially if they are very different economies in a large geographical area.

The Labour government at the time the euro began did not join but it said joining was right in principle, when the time is right. The Lib Dems wanted us to join immediately and, as ever, the Conservatives were split. Had we voted to remain, I don't doubt that we would have joined at some point, as Heseltine and Major have said and Blair implied.

Replying to Maisie, I don't know who constantly says all Leavers knew exactly what they were voting for. I suspect many Leavers and Remainers were struggling with the choice. In the end, we could only try to assess the future under either scenario and cast our vote accordingly. There is no certainty either way.

With regard to the chlorinated chicken

There's a lot of hysterical hyperbole and it appears unfounded

This from an article by the BBC

It's not consuming chlorine itself that the EU is worried about - in fact in 2005 the European Food Safety Authority said that "exposure to chlorite residues arising from treated poultry carcasses would be of no safety concern". Chlorine-rinsed bagged salads are common in the UK and other countries in the EU.

But the EU believes that relying on a chlorine rinse at the end of the meat production process could be a way of compensating for poor hygiene standards - such as dirty or crowded abattoirs.

So the chlorine itself isn't actually seen as a problem.

Oh please growstuff, let's not get into making excuses for jura2 for her use of the English language, she seems perfectly capable of using English very well on the other threads.

I have given one of my reasons for voting to Leave earlier on in this thread, and on many other Brexit threads, feel free to check for yourself.

So you are going to tell us what you voted for Opal? You're obviously not in the dark, as most of us are.

Or maybe, Opal, jura's use of language wasn't entirely appropriate. English isn't her native language. The UK itself chose not to join the Eurozone.

How would you define sovereignty Cunco?

Er, I think you'll find MaizieD if you look back at this thread, that I was quoting jura2 - it was she who said the only member allowed. I was highlighting the word allowed, which is what I object to - the EU are not entitled to allow us anything when it comes to our sovereign currency! I am well aware of the names and number of countries that use the Euro, thank you. Interesting that a Remain voter, jura2, seems to be ignorant of these facts.

So yes, I did bloody well know what I was voting for.

the only member allowed to keep its own currency and not be part of Schengen

This is actually untrue. The euro is used in only 19 of the member countries

The Schengen area includes 26 EU member countries and a number of non eu countries which have chosen (Note; no compulsion to join; chosen) to join the Schengen area

www.etiaseurope.eu/schengen-countries/

Interesting that a Leaver voter (who, we are being constantly told, knew exactly what they were voting for) seems to be ignorant of these facts

Exactly why I voted to leave - the only member allowed -

Tory MP and cattle farmer Bill Wiggins (Herefordshire N) has said (Hereford Times interview) that chlorinated chicken would be a good idea as it would stop stomach bugs.

What a total ignoramus! And people voted for him?

The whole 'point' of chlorination is to attempt to destroy the buildup of harmful bacteria on/in the chicken caused by poor husbandry standards (far lower than ours). The drawback is that chlorination does not kill all the toxic bacteria.

Perhaps he is not aware ( or prefers to ignore) the fact that the USA has a far higher incidence of food poisoning per capita than does the UK. One in six US citizens get food poisoning each year as opposed to one in sixty UK citizens.

Let me repeat. It is not the chlorine itself that is harmful, it is the bacteria it signally fails to destroy. Bacteria which is not present on EU chicken (or only present in tiny amounts) because our animal husbandry standards are so much higher.

Had joining the Common Market been just that, as many believed in 1975, I don't think their would have been an argument. Sadly, the EU never had just this simple (if protective) ambition. An Economic, Monetary and Political Union was always the long-term aim, one which Parliament edged towards without asking a reluctant population directly. The Referendum was a missed opportunity to have the debate and maybe convince the majority that, as one prominent Remainer said, sovereignty is a 'nebulous concept'. I beg to differ but I am open to argument, had the case been seriously put.

Whether or not he could have secured a better deal is neither here nor there now. The fact is that he secured permanent opt out from the euro and from 'closer political union'. Which concessions were to be written into treaty and so well nigh impossible to reverse. But both of these were major frighteners in the Leave campaign, which totally ignored his achievement, for obvious reasons. To have acknowledged their existence would have destroyed a large part of their platform.

In other matters, Tory MP and cattle farmer Bill Wiggins (Herefordshire N) has said (Hereford Times interview) that chlorinated chicken would be a good idea as it would stop stomach bugs. If he wants to eat it, he's welcome, but I won't be feeding it to my family.

”David Cameron could have secured a better deal from Europe ahead of the referendum, his own EU adviser has claimed.
Mats Persson said the former prime minister should have demanded the negotiation talks lasted longer than eight months.
He also suggested that Mr Cameron could have achieved more substantial reforms if he had "played" the renegotiation differently.”

Quote from:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/05/david-cameron-could-have-secured-better-deal-europehis-eu-adviser/

Let's hope our Brexit negotiators will show more competence. There are after all quite a few deals that need to be struck.

Cameron put himself in a really bad place. Having shouted about how dreadfully unfair the EU was to the UK and how he was going to get much better terms, he didn't get as much as he wanted (though he did get significant concessions), allowed the media to rubbish what he did get, and then had to be a leading light in a campaign to 'Stay' in the EU.

'Plonker' hardly conveys the sheer dreadful idiocy of the man...

Urmstongran The EU did NOT send Cameron away with his tail between his legs. He won certain concessions, but the media at the time ignored them and Cameron was such a plonker he didn't shout about them, as Thatcher would have done.

Opal You really do not know whether it would have ever have been in the UK's best interest to join the Eurozone. AFAIK there isn't/wasn't a compelling reason to do so and nobody was putting pressure on the UK to join. It really does sound as though you believed in a particular Project Fear.

My personal belief (and I've talked to people who know a hell of a lot more about this than I do) is that the Eurozone might well weaken or even collapse in the future, as global currency systems evolve.

Nevertheless, a single market and co-operation between current member states will strengthen - and the UK is going to be left looking on from the outside. Our geography means that we cannot just ignore EU states, but we will be going to any negotiating table with a considerably weakened hand.

Unlike some, I listen to knowledgeable people from the other side of the argument including, in this case, Michael Heseltine and John Major who are totally sold on the EU Project. I have heard them indicate that ultimately, of course, we would join the Eurozone. If you accept the concept of an Economic, Monetary and Political Union, you have to; but as far as I am aware, there has never been a poll that showed a majority in favour of the UK joining the Eurozone, let alone the full monty. The Referendum could and should have been a poll on whether we sign up to this future United States of Europe. Sadly, Remain did not argue this as its positive case, relying instead on Project Fear and painting an insidious stereotype of those who dared to differ.

the only member allowed to keep its own currency and not be part of Schengen

Exactly why I voted to leave - the only member allowed - how much longer do you think we would have been allowed to keep our own currency? Eventually we would have been tied into the Euro, which would have irrevocably tied us to weaker European economies and that would have been catastrophic. Just look at the rumblings in the EU right now, it's only a matter of time before its demise.

And many of the postal votes were fraudulent A dodgy company running it. So altogether not a fair election.

You are wrong Grandad1943 when you claim tbat-

"the above is what the majority in Britain voted for in electing a Boris Johnson led Tory government on a Brexit ticket."

The majority who voted in the last election (56%) voted against Johnson and his party, not for them.

It is high time that this country became a democracy and got rid of FPTP. That should be top priority if we are ever to escape from this "elected dictatorship"

No alignment - in short, means -

NO exports, be it for meat, parts, cars, anything you can think about that we have been successfully exporting, without tarifs, for so many years. And for which all our indutries had spent large sums of money to align in order to be able to do so.