Sensible Discussion on Labour Leadership hopefuls MK 2

Bloody hell I could cheerfully throttle Blair for some of the things he did but the utter unwillingness to see anything beyond the mantra of blair is bad, tories are evil, is such a dead end.

It will be interesting who the Party Members elect leader but I am surprised that there is talk of Corbyn as a cabinet member.
He has been a useless indecisive leader, yesterday’s failure, other that a sop to the extreme left a waste of space.

Agree Galaxy but grandad43 has said often the Blair / Brown governments did give the unions anything !

I think you are assigning too much significance to the 'grass roots activists, Grandad. I doubt that they are such an overwhelming proportion of the 'ordinary' membership that they will carry the day. 60% of the CLPs endorsing Starmer doesn't sound like a yearning for the 'continuity candidate' to me.

Starmer has said right from the very start that he doesn't want a return to the 'Blairite' party. Did you not pick that up?

Sadiq Khan has said he will not be voting for Long Bailey
he said the party needs a leader who understands why it lost
the 2019 election

A party that gave them nothing
National minimum wage
Free nursery places for 3 and 4 year olds
Reduced homelessness by over 70 %
Autism act
Established low pay commission
Record numbers of support staff in schools
Sure start
Scrapped section 28
Reduced NHS waiting lists to lowest levels
Reduced long term unemployment by a ridiculous amount
Civil partnerships
Free eye tests for over 60's
I could go on and on.
Do I think the labour party will go back to the blair era. No. I dont think going back is ever a good idea. I think some people who complain about Blair were exactly the people who didnt need a labour government, whose lives weren't affected one iota by the era they complain about.

Grandad

Names and numbers hey.

It was Ed Miliband not Corbyn you thought was ' mischief making'.

However both could be in the Shadow Cabinet, not implausible.

Do you remember Corbyn touted Ed Mibands name as a potential Shadow Cabinet Minister back in 2016. Also Ed Miliband was thought to have been in with a shout after Clive Lewis left the Shadow Cabinet but Rebecca Long Bailey got the job.

Nowt so weird as People and Politics. As an old manager of mine once said ' If you sit in that chair long enough you will see things go full circle'.

For those that believe that the Parliamentary Labour Party will or can return to the years of Blair, Brown and Miliband, think again. The Trade unions have funded and given enormous other support to the Parliamentary party for well over one hundred years and never has that support been greater than in the last two decades.

In the above, what have those often low paid trade union organised workers who gave all that funding and support witnessed within the Parliamentary Party in those last two decades? First and foremost a party that in more than twelve years of government gave them absolutely nothing. Then we all witnessed a party striven with internal division due to a sector that would not accept the democratic election of a leader. In the undermining action that was continually carried by that sector, the requirements of those that were at the core of the Labour movement in the country seemed to matter little.

The above now has brought the respect held by way of the grassroots activist outside the Parliamentary Labour party to a very low level, and in that, there is very strong opinion within those activists to "pull the plug" on what is the political wing of the TUC.

All three candidates for the Labour leadership have in the last few days emphasised their commitment to upholding the policies brought forward during the Corbyn period of leadership. That newfound commitment in two of the candidates is I feel recognition of how serious the situation is in the relationship between the Parliamentary Party and the wider Labour movement.

Therefore to have Corbyn or McDonald in the shadow cabinet may be the only way in the short to medium term to placate the grassroots membership of the movement and in that way maintain the support that has been so generously forthcoming for so very many years.

So, there will be no return to the Blair era that some on this thread undoubtedly wish to see, for any move to bring that about from within the Parliamentary Labour Party would ensure it is cast adrift by way of all others in the Labour movement. That would ensure the Parliamentary Labour Party would travel in the same direction as the "gang of four", the Alliance Party, the LibDems and many others who thought that a centre left party could exist outside of the Labour movement.

I apologies to POGS in stating in an earlier post that I felt that the rumours of Jeremy Corbyn being included in a future shadow cabinet were "mischief-making", as it seems that today those reports have much substance and reasoning in them.

So, again apologies POGS.

Sorry Ilovecheese (I do too!) I didn’t respond earlier. I’ve been having a think (whilst putting some make up on to go out in an hour!).

- The 4 day week.

- Set up public inquiries into blacklisting and Orgreave. For goodness sake, why not one into the Charge of the Light Brigade while we are at it?

- Abolish zero-hour contracts. Only 2.8% of workers in ‘zero hours Britain’ are employed on zero hours contracts, and of these only a third want to work extra hours, according to the ONS. Eliminating this form of work would not just drive up costs for business, it would hurt people who appreciate flexible working arrangements and the freedom to work only when they want to.

- The threat to produce generic versions of drugs unless pharmaceutical companies agree to sell them at ‘fair’ prices. Labour also says it wants to increase the number of pharmaceutical jobs in Britain – but how, given that it is threatening to undermine the industry’s ability to earn back the billions it costs to develop new drugs?

Off to put my mascara and lipstick on ?

Corbyn was kryptonite to the electorate. Many of the policies, e.g. nationalising rail, have majority support in opinion polls. Labour needs a leader and top team that can sell sell sell the Labour brand to the public and build trust after years of taking the blame for the state of the economy and everything else.

It’s amazing that after a decade of Tory ineptitude (well Osborne & Cameron’s stupid austerity measures that have left us where we are now) voters still think they’re better with the economy. Obviously we didn’t trust the alternative!

F

Which of the manifesto promises would you like to see dropped Urmstongran?

Somebody once described Long-Bailey as looking and sounding like a mid-ranking council official you've just had an argument with and she does

She also has another job working in the cafe at our local Sainsburys.
Her or her twin siser.

Somebody once described Long-Bailey as looking and sounding like a mid-ranking council official you've just had an argument with and she does.

Nandy comes across as vice-chair of the debating society at the University of Wigan - occasional passion, but you don't really feel there's much behind it.

Starmer, far from perfect. He needs to chuck in a few jokes and loosen up, and losing the tie in the C4 leaders' debate recently was probably a step in the right direction. But he is by far the best candidate of those still on the ballot paper, in my opinion.

MaizieD Fri 21-Feb-20 16:07:36

'it comes from the Labour Candidates themselves.

'Only from two of them.'
--

Well at least you comprehend there is a truth behind the story.

There are only 3 candidates left for Leader and 6 for Deputy Leader.

Rebecca Long Bailey says she would welcome Corbyn into her Cabinet as far as I know Starmer and Nandy have neither said yes or no. So that 's 1.

Angela Raynor totally backs Rebecca Long Bailey so she could be 2

Richard Burgon would welcome Corbyn into the Cabinet and has on questioning been asked as to which role and he suggested maybe' Foreign Secretary ' so that makes 3

Dawn Butler is never far from Corbyn side and she is a staunch ally of Corbyn so I think she 'could ' make it 4

Ian Murray, Not remotely likely

Kalid Mahmood, Total outsider doesn't really matter.

Rosena Allin Khan, an unknown but she did say :-

' We need to move beyond the last few years where nasty internal debates about faction and ideological purity have too often alienated people outside our movement.' so no 5, probably not but who knows.

Corbyn stating ' he would consider it' however would depend on who was leader and if that turns out to be Long Bailey/Burgon then it is not beyond a possibility.

growstuff Yes, I did get your super forecaster reference but Blair is more of an operator than a prophet. I see, even before Labour or Lib Dems have selected their new leaders, Blair is suggesting a pact to promote common interests. I imagine the EU is high on his list. Lib Dem hopeful Layla Moran thinks he is right but, as far as I am aware, Labour leadership candidates have continued to distance themselves from the suggestion or the former Labour Prime Minister.

The Liberal Democrat leadership will not be decided until July so it's all talk for now.

When Starmer talks of other things ( not politics) he comes to life, smiling and even a bit twinkly, it’s a shame he can’t inject a bit of that into his ‘politicking’.However people are as they are, and TMay was incapable of doing that too.
I think he will be boringly forensic at PMQ’s, but that has to be better than JC’s angry rants.Johnson, not a natural when being heckled/questioned soon loses his ‘flow’ but can be quick witted and amusing to make up for it.Johnson will have to be more au fait with precise figures to be successful in the chamber ( as TMay was, in fact, precise figures and attention-to detail were her strong points.)
It does look as if Starmer will now become the Leader. Certainly the best choice in my view.

There aren't enough left-wing voters in this country to elect a left-wing government with a working majority to implement left-wing policies. Therefore, Labour has to water down its policies to appeal to the broader electorate.

It is actually depressing watching some of the candidates having to pretend to support Comrade Corbyn's disastrous manifesto pledges and then there are those on the lunatic fringe who do really believe it.

You're in cloud cuckoo land again, Ug. All Johnson's ever been able to do is waffle. I suspect that Starmer could run rings round him; he's a barrister, for heaven's sake. Have you never seen a barrister in action in a court?

Yes MaizieD but this one is SO boring, droning on, he could talk a glass eye to sleep.

I keep asking why is Starmer deemed to be centrist?

He gives little impression in the debates/hustings to denote he is a centre/centre right Labour MP as far as I read into his words.

Example he has said :-

'What Corbyn bought to the Labour party was a change of emphasis - radicalism that really matters - we need to build on that, not oversteer and go back to a bygone age."
-
Does his following comment cement his disapproval of the Blair /Brown government of the Centre. :-

“A Labour party that strays too far from its values, loses. In the end, the Labour party strayed too far from its values between 1997 and 2010,”.

Yes he challenges matters such as the way Labour handled the antisemitism problem and the underhanded use by the NEC over the Labour ' LONG LIST ' shenanigans but it would be hoped All Labour MP's with any decency irrespective of whether they are far left/left/centre/centre right of the party would challenge such matters.

Starmer has 60% of the nominations from Constituency Labour Parties. From the CLP's that supported Corbyn, Starmer is still in the lead, though Long-Bailey is a strong second.

The party won't elect a moderate as leader.

As Starmer is getting more endorsements from CLPs (including Islington!) than the other candidates I really don't follow your reasoning there..

it comes from the Labour Candidates themselves.

Only from two of them.

Whether his ‘forensic’ intelligence can challenge Boris soundly at the dispatch box remains to be seen.

You're in cloud cuckoo land again, Ug. All Johnson's ever been able to do is waffle. I suspect that Starmer could run rings round him; he's a barrister, for heaven's sake. Have you never seen a barrister in action in a court?

Actually it seems to me that The problem that Labour has is structural. (I’m sure Grandad1943 will be along to disagree with me!).

While over 10 million people voted Labour in 2019, their views are far different from the few hundred thousand Labour Party members.

The far-left clique of amateur fanatics, wear their "lefty-ism" as a badge of honour - the further left, the more "committed" they are.

They do not represent the average Labour voter. Yet to become Labour leader, a candidate has to be "blessed" by the party.

A classic catch-22.

Voters will not elect a Labour government that is led by an extremist. The party won't elect a moderate as leader.