Sensible Discussion on Labour Leadership hopefuls MK 2

I think it's worth noting how this has affected other parties so that the labour party could avoid the pitfalls. Although it looks too late for that. The issue has caused havoc in the Green Party and the lib dems, causing a lot of ill feeling amongst supporters of both parties, I actually though the Labour Party might be 'too big' to be affected in such a way but it seems I was wrong.

"The Labour candidates who signed up to the Labour Campaign For Trans Rights, 12 points were inevitably going to be scrutinised that is not ' political point scoring ',"

No, but "The Labour Party really is Comedy Gold these days ."
is.

As for ' political point scoring ' is this thread not about discussing the actions of the Labour Leadership Candidates?

The Campaign is ' The LABOUR Campaign For Trans Rights' if there is a reciprocal Tory/Lib Dem/SNP Campaign for Trans Rights then that would certainly deserve a discussion /debate but it would be lost on a thread discussing/debating the Labour Party.

As with other threads there are varying matters being discussed

A) The Labour Candidates

B) Trans issues

The Labour candidates who signed up to the Labour Campaign For Trans Rights, 12 points were inevitably going to be scrutinised that is not ' political point scoring ', unless of course you accept the signing of the Campaign was so ill advised on their part it inevitably could be used against them. Even that opinion feeds into the debate about who is best to Lead the Labour Party.

Suziewoozie

suziewoozie Mon 17-Feb-20 11:44:00

POGS fair enough what? Point taken what? To be gratuitously nasty and misquote me? For no reason just spoiling what was an interesting discussion and the interesting point that all politicians should take heed of the fact that the issue of self id concerns women of all political persuasions. Well bloody done.'
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No idea what you are saying to be honest , where have I misquoted you?

I have been having a look over on Mumsnet at the feminist boards, and from what I see on there, the Conservative party has by no means washed its hands of the Gender Recognition Act.
There is a thread on there at the moment entitled "Emails to Liz Truss and the response of the Government Equalities Office"
The OP is trying to get some clarity about what will happen about single sex spaces for women, and not receiving satisfactory replies.
The op states "Whilst we are distracted by the Labour Party, this is the main battle."

It really is not a party political issue, it is a feminist issue and women of all political views should work together to protect ourselves and our daughters and granddaughters, not try and score political points over this issue.

In the short term, yes sw
April could be a game changer but I won’t hold my breath.

It’s not ‘Comedy Gold’ Urm Anyone with any understanding of democracy would realise its no laughing matter to not have an effective Opposition and especially with the totally amoral BJ and DC in charge and with the nodding chanting dogs around the cabinet table. Are you really happy to give an administration like this a free rein?

The Labour Party really is Comedy Gold these days . Fortunately , I transitioned from voting for the party years ago.

ilove this ‘lobby group’ had their earliest successes within the Conservative Party. I first became involved in the whole debate when I learned of it through MN and the truly awful wholesale embrace of self id and TWAW by Maria Millar when she was chair of the women’s and Equalities select committee. My guess is that the activities of the WESC were not really on the radar of the Tory Leadership and so she operated under the radar and even published a consultation government and got Justine Greening on board before the party realised what was going on. The Tories have now basically washed their hands of any reforms to the GRA and the Equalities Act. So the trans lobby turned to the Liberal and Labour Parties.

This is not a stick to beat the LP with - it is a damn great self inflicted open running sore which is making a laughing stock of all the achievements in women’s equality brought about by them. All the Tories have to do is keep quiet and do nothing.

I agree with your last post lemongrove but I do wonder why this lobby group seems to be targeting the Labour Party, who are in no position to introduce gender self definition for at least the next five years. Could it be that they think they can bully the party more easily because three out of the four candidates for leadership were women?

The issue is, as had been said, not party political, but does seem to have become another stick to beat the Labour Party with. The media are making a big deal of it, perhaps to deflect attention away from too close scrutiny of the current Government.

I would have thought ( wrongly) that all women would be
Extremely concerned about what is happening with the
‘Trans issue’. That a very small minority can be twisting politicians and the general public into accepting all their demands is so worrying.Most reasonable people accept that trans people should be treated with respect, but that certainly doesn’t mean caving in to whatever they want, particularly when it threatens women.
We are in danger of sleepwalking into ‘pledges’ and even laws being put in place to allow self ID ( as women) those men who pose a danger in many ways to women.
Women have had enough to put up with over the years to ‘prove themselves’ without being sidelined like this.
I am with you on this suziew 100%.

POGS fair enough what? Point taken what? To be gratuitously nasty and misquote me? For no reason just spoiling what was an interesting discussion and the interesting point that all politicians should take heed of the fact that the issue of self id concerns women of all political persuasions. Well bloody done.

I'm sure it said it all to you, POGS because you have always wholeheartedly believed in the anti-semitic trope.

I had a look at his credentials. They seemed reasonable enough to make his viewpoint worth considering.

www.jonathan-cook.net/about/

suziewoo, ie

Fair enough, point taken.

Maizied

I stopped reading the opinion of Jonathan Cook at the point he said :-

But the CONFECTED “antisemitism row” played a very significant supporting role. The disastrous consequences of that row are still very much being felt, as Labour prepares to find a new leader.

The issue of antisemitism was probably not much of a priority for most voters, '
-

Said it all to me.

He attacks Owen Jones which I could not care less about but the blog is a rerun of the copious amounts of threads we have all engaged in for almost 5 years, since Corbyn became Labour Leader and those who spoke out about antisemitism in the Labour Party and those who outright denied there was even an issue with antisemitism in Labour, CONFECTED you call it.

That ship has sailed and the truth is now known.

What the Candidates will do about it is yet to be seen and more to the point WHAT / WHO is holding on to the nuts and bolts of the Labour Party and that will affect their ability to lead Labour.

And actually I don’t give a flying fig whether anyone agrees with me or not about this issue. I just thought it was nice to acknowledge posts from the same perspective. I notice tigers do it But oh no, any opportunity to have a dig at me.

Well POGS I’m sorry you felt you had to post that. I never used the words backing up and I know full well that we have different views on most things. So sod your Peace, your post was unnecessary and patronising.

suziewoozie

Please don't take this the wrong way but I am not ' backing you ' we simply on this subject hold a similar view so no need to thank me .

I initiated the point I believe on the other thread and so my posts are merely my own opinions and by posting I am merely continuing with my own thoughts on the matter, as other posters are doing.

Peace.

It's also in my opinion an indicator of intelligence and critical thinking, why on earth would I believe anything Lisa Nandy has to say on any topic if she believes child rapists should be placed in a womans prison. I would feel the same about a candidate who said the earth was flat or denied climate change.

I don't think you're following my train of thought at all. POGS. I was just musing on probabilities in my last post as I am puzzled by the sight of candidates apparently being held in thrall by a very small minority.

The other interesting issue is that of anti-semitism, which, I think, might concern a far larger proportion of their electorate. Though I think that, with Corbyn gone it will sink into relative obscurity as not being needed any longer as a tool to demonise the LP leader with.

I found this a few days ago:

www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2020-02-12/antisemitism-threat-labour/

I'm posting this as something people might be interested in reading, not really as part of this discussion.

Grandad

This topic has been discussed now on both the threads and you have not been asked this question. -

Do you believe threatening to ' EXPEL. ' Labour Members for holding an opposing opinion is good for the party?

Now I appreciate this happens with Racist issues such as being an antisemite/islamophobic but they are palpable issues the Trans question is not that clear.

Labour didn’t win the last election ? No one told me

Thanks Call for that and also to POGS again for her latest post. The trans issue transcends traditional party lines.

Grandad

' I believe that several forum members posting in this thread are forgetting that the Labour Party are not the party of government and in all probability will not be that for at least the next four years. Therefore such issues as transgender etc would be better addressed on a thread that referred to government policy on such minority group issues.'
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I do not agree with you.

The thread is discussing the Labour Leadership candidates and signing the Labour Campaign For Trans Rights is something they have been' proud ' to say they have done at hustings and interviews.

The excuse the Labour Party is not in Government is not the point, that could be used to try and avert away from scrutinising the candidates at every turn.

What is the point of hustings etc. if the candidates are not setting out to the Labour Members and wider electorate who are watching what values they hold, how they want to shape the Labour Party and hopefully enact what they get in to government.

The issue of self-identification does affect an extremely tiny minority but in fact has the potential of affecting the majority, not just natal women, their daughters, granddaughters but indirectly their OH, fathers, grandfathers too.

With so much on the agenda, with the interminable slowness of the LP leadership election, it's worrying that common sense seems to have disappeared from the process and meanwhile Boris forges ahead without a leader of the opposition of any substance to hold the Government to account.

suziewoozie I am with you on this issue.