Sensible Discussion on Labour Leadership hopefuls MK 2

Funnily enough I don’t need the respect of anyone for my views. And there are some people who if I did have their respect I’d be seriously worried about what I was thinking. Re #ExpelMe - LN and RLB signed upto that, that’s all I ( and many many others) need to know. Whether and how it might happen is irrelevant. They backed it - called WomansPlace and others ‘hate groups’.Neither is fit to be a leader.

Anything contained in the “expel me too” pledge will have to comply with the legal obligations laid out in the Equality Act 2010.

That Act states as it's primary function that it is against the legislation laid down in that legislation to discriminate against any person on the grounds of race, religious belief, gender or sexual preference. Therfore any pledge contained within Labour movement policy would have to comply with the above or without doubt legal challenges would very soon be filed against the Labour movement.

The above is the reason I stated in an earlier post in this thread that the only body which can deal with this matter is the annual Labour Delegate Conference which is to be held as usual in September.

Doubtless, several composites and opposing motions will be on the agenda for debate, and that will allow the movements General Secretary Jenny Formby to advise on the legal position of any proposed policy adoption.

suziewoozie, in regard to your post @ 10:36 today, once more you join this thread and imeaditly engage in personal insults against contributors. Already you have made yourself appear foolish in trying to carry out such activities in your post of the 17th February @09:35 in this thread.

Perhaps suziewoozie if you were to remain within the ongoing debate and spend less effort in personal affront contribution you would get more respected in your point of view.

It’s all relative POGS. Least worst at worst, hope for the future at best.

Labour are doomed!

Not one real leader.
The withered ghost of Tony Bliar sounds like Hamlet, act two...

For weeks I have not received an answer to a question, on this thread or the other one, so I will keep trying by repeating the question in the hope someone will answer.

I keep asking why is Starmer deemed to be centrist?

He gives little impression in the debates/hustings to denote he is a centre/centre right Labour MP as far as I read into his words.

Example he has said :-

'What Corbyn bought to the Labour party was a change of emphasis - radicalism that really matters - we need to build on that, not oversteer and go back to a bygone age."
-
Does his following comment cement his disapproval of the Blair /Brown government of the Centre. :-

“A Labour party that strays too far from its values, loses. In the end, the Labour party strayed too far from its values between 1997 and 2010,”.

Yes he challenges matters such as the way Labour handled the antisemitism problem and the underhanded use by the NEC over the Labour ' LONG LIST ' shenanigans but it would be hoped All Labour MP's with any decency irrespective of whether they are far left/left/centre/centre right of the party would challenge such matters.

Can anybody enlighten me?

The next election is not going to be decided on the trans issue, or the antisemitic or sex discrimination or about a dozen other single issue lobbies. It is going to be decided on broad fairness in society issues, to win a majority you have got to carry the middle ground floating voters.

It is reported that 100,000 new members have joined the party since the election was announced, let’s hope they were mainly moderates who want fairness for all. If they prove to be hard liners who only want more pay for union members, the Labour Party is sunk, not even useful as an effective opposition.

Grandads posts on this thread demonstrate that he knows zilch about the trans issue and cares even less. He dismissed posts on the issue by some of us as ‘ranting’. It’s just not worth bothering addressing him on the issue - it’s just a ‘minority’ thing as it only affects women.

Are you being disingenuous grandad. Haven’t you seen the “expel me too” hashtag? RLB and Lisa Nandy both signed the pledge . One of the central points they agree on is the right of trans women to self id. Feminists who raise genuine concerns about this are to be thrown out unless they agree to something they’re unhappy about.

Galaxy Quote [the labour party is currently threatening to expel women in their thousands] End Quote.

Galaxy would you care to expand on your above statement as I do not have any knowledge of "women being threatened with expulsion in their thousands" in any part of the Labour movement.

And they are paying now because of Corbyn's utter self indulgence.

Grandad I have just said it was exactly the same in the nineties, and as the labour party is currently threatening to expel women in their thousands I am not sure they have moved on very far. How can you have a debate if you plan to expel the 'opposite side'.

I am a Labour Party member, grandad43 is not a Labour Party member, he speaks for UNITE union, this is an example
of the divide in the Labour Party,

1960’s and 1970’s the unions held the power, this gave us the
Thatcher years.

Iam64, the trans issue will be a matter for the current government to deal with for at least the next four years. Undoubtedly the matter will be the subject of a number of competing composite motions to be debated and decided on by the grassroots membership at the Delegate Labour Party conference in September, and that's the way it should be.

Again In regard to your above post Iam64, whatever happened in the 1970s is now history and equality has moved all on within our society in the past fifty years.

Anniebach and any other forum member, could you please inform me who in this country would be likely to fully fund the Parliamentary Labour party outside of the trades unions (the broader Labour movement)

Many have thought that possible in the past and all have failed. Blair almost succeeded but that brought about the British end of the Banking crisis and the Iraq war. Many workers and their families then paid for that banking crisis with their jobs and their homes.

In that, not one of Blair and Browns banking chums have ever been brought to justice.

Galaxy If the Conservatives remained in power for 15 more years, it would make a run of 25 years. Thatcher/Major ran for 'only' 18 years although after the 1983 Election, signalling the end of Michael Foot as Labour Leader, it took 14 years before Labour again regained power under Tony Blair in 1997.

The years ahead look challenging for anyone in power, especially if the climate pessimists are correct. It might be an entirely different ball-game by 2035.

I am64, I dont want to depress you but that was pretty much my experience of CLP in the nineties.

Phew, just read through this long discussion and feeling a need to walk my dogs, especially as it isn't raining here, which feels like a minor miracle.
Minor miracles, maybe we need a major miracle or three to unite those who would vote Labour. Grandad's references to where the power lies, that is with in his view, the Unions remind me of what it felt like to be a young woman attending CLP meetings in the early 70's. No spontaneity allowed, everything "through the chair" - disapproval because I brought a baby to one evening meeting.
The fact that KS has gained the majority of votes from CLP's gives me hope that we aren't going to be consigned to a continuity Corbyn candidate.
As for the trans issue, it can't simply be dismissed because the LP isn't the government. It's an issue that is taking off and causing all kinds of distress to many people on both sides of the argument.
I support the rights of trans people, agree there needs to be continued discussion about trans women who self id but don't transition and traditional safe spaces for women. I don't say all trans women should go through medical changes but remain concerned about the example given so often, that is the potential risk posed by a self id woman who is in fact a sex offender. They'll be very few in number of course. This isn't something anyone in any of the political parties can simply dismiss - unless they're the current government!

10 years for electoral success by my estimate, I think it's possible the leadership campaign may have extended that to 15. I suppose it's possible Johnson may take a risk too far and that might save Labour. Other than that he will be there for a very long time. The Labour party arent listening to you though grandad, dawn butler for example has just been on the today programme having to admit that sex is real. They arent talking about economics they are becoming mired in identity politics.

So there can never be a united Labour Party, if we have
The Parliamentary Labour Party and the broader labour movement.

Galaxy, the one thing that the Labour Party can be assured of, is that it will not achieve any meaningful electoral success for at least the next four years.

Therefore, what I and many others wish to see, I believe, is a Parliamentary Labour Party unified around a core set of policies. Those policies should be no more than commitments to a strong left-wing stance on security of employment, education, housing and health.

Outside the above, the party should avoid formulating policies on minority issues or those affecting minority groups in our society for that always gives a hostile media a weapon to use against the Party.

Over the next two to three years the electorate will come to judge whether Brexit has been a success or a failure, and It is then that the Parliamentary Labour Party along with the Broader movement can formulate more extensive policies in the light of the situation in the country.

Until that time, what is required is all in the Parliamentary Labour Party to be united around its leadership and the above core policies.

If that cannot be achieved within Labours parliamentary ranks, then the broader Labour movement should undoubtedly consign the Parliamentary Party to the bin, and take up other options, I believe.

Do you want electoral success for the labour party? Thats a serious question, I am not being antagonistic, I dont get a sense of that from the left of the party, and I worry the country sensed that too.
It's something about ambition, I think, Johnson has somehow harnessed that. It wasnt just about Brexit that election victory.

Galaxy, in all honesty, I do not believe that the Parliamentary Labour Party can be brought together. I sincerely hope I am wrong in that belief, but I fear not.

There are other options for the broader Labour movement in the country, and this year could see the opening up and a wide discussion on those options I feel.

Much will depend on how the new leader of the Labour Party acts on taking office.

We need a candidate to bring the party together, although I am beginning to believe that may be an impossible task. As much as you may hate it grandad you need the blairites and the tories to vote for you. The party not you personally! How do you think that is going to be achieved?

The minimum wage was labour party policy since Keir hardie, blair was the only labour leader to actually introduce it because he was the only one who gained power. It is very easy to say it should have been more, or it should have been done this way. The gig economy in particular is a complex issue and cant all be laid at the feet of Blair. In the sector I work in, mostly women, low paid and often part time, the national minimum wage has improved their lives. As did nursery provision and sure start. There is no such list for corbyn because he hasn't been able to gain power. I agree with much.of current labour party policy but it was very clear in 2017 that corbyn was never going to win an election, to continue onwards was a selfish act.

It was the Unions who kept Lord Robens in his job

Totally Disgusting.

MaizieD, in regard to your post @20:47 today, the activists I referred to in my earlier posts are those which sit on the national executives of the major unions, sit on the Regional and District committees of the same, trade sector group groups of Unite and are shop floor union representatives in many companies.

The above may or may not be the majority in this leadership election, but they will certainly be the Labour members who will decide if the support and continuing relationship by the trade union movement of the Parliamentary Labour Party is to continue into the future?

Galaxy, in regard to your post @20:44 today, just to take one item from your list, Blair did bring in the minimum wage regulations during the years of his administration. However, he then allowed any poor employer to circumnavigate those regulations by allowing Zero Hours contracts and, even worse, Gig economy employment to flourish.

That has drastically effected low skilled working people and their families right up to the present time.

It is only through the actions of the trade unions through the courts that Gig Economy employment is being cut back. Throughout that court action, the Parliamentary Labour party (riven with its internal divisions) offered no support whatsoever. Only Corbyn, McDonald and a few more on the left of the Parliamentary Labour Party individually spoke up in support of the trade union action.

Totally Disgusting.