We don't need our farmers and fishermen

I agree with you too SirChenjin. I wouldn't trust this government to go tiddler fishing in a pond. I think the announcement about fishing not being important is a softening up exercise. Even if the UK does "take back control" of its waters, it's still got to sell the stuff it catches because we don't want it.

I agree MOnica. It's unrealistic to suggest that the UK will ever be self-sufficient in food. It's also ludicrous to suggest that agriculture and fishing aren't important - to the economy, employment, the environment or anything else.

What the government seems to be saying is that farming will no longer be able to rely on subsidies. That makes sense from a purely economic point of view (maybe), but there would be all sorts of repercussions. I don't think it was what farmers thought they were voting for before the referendum.

Apparently, the UK has a trade surplus on fish with the EU. British fishermen actually catch loads of fish, but the British don't like eating it, so we export what we catch and import what we want to eat.

The UK also has a trade surplus on barley, which is used mainly for animal feed, but we have to import wheat, especially the high protein wheat used for bread, from North America and Germany.

The UK also imports rice, tea, coffee and loads of other foodstuffs, which can't be grown in the UK. We also import 95% of our wine.

Personally, I hardly eat anything made from grain, including bread, and rarely eat root vegetables, so I'd be a bit lost if the UK didn't import anything. I don't drink alcohol, so that wouldn't bother me, but I think most people would be put out. Most British-grown strawberries and tomatoes are grown hydroponically under glass/plastic and lack taste. I can't see the country choosing to live on only what could be produced in the UK.

I don't really fancy a diet of potatoes, eels and barley.

Even in the days of subsistence agriculture in Britain, food was still imported and exported. I recently visited a Roman villa in Berkshire, Built and operating in the very late Roman period whn the empire was falling apart. It flourished because Britain was fairly peaceful when Europe wasn't and the villa owner, one of many made his money by selling surplus wheat to a war torn Europe. In the meanwhile luxury foods like figs, herbs and spices wer being imported.

As the report Irefer to on the previous page suggests, is that we will have the capacity to be self sufficient if we need to, but otherwise will be both exporting and importing foods we cannot grow but which we wish to eat. It is not an either or. It is a 'can if we have to'

Perhaps by claiming we don’t actually need our fishing or farming industries is their way of taking back control?

Smoke, mirrors and sleight of hand seems to be the Tories order of the day.

I thought they said fisheries were were a redline they were sticking to and taking back control, no compromise. We will know by next Christmas just what the future for food production is going to be.

At present the only decision to be made is do we a want food produced to lower standards.

But .. but … but the government (via its advisor) is saying that agriculture and fishing aren't important. They're not talking about self-sufficiency.

We wouldn’t “want” to be self sufficient it would be pretty tough, we are largely self sufficient in cereals, vegetable production could easily increase, eliminating waste alone would add 40%, livestock production could increase greatly, there is a large area of under used grassland.
The real changes would be lack of tropical crops of all kinds from rice to bananas.

If we do import more we are not helping to offset global warming, or environmental damage we are merely exporting our pollution to another country. Importing Wheat from the US only increases soil erosion there, Beef from Brazil increases rainforest destruction, so there is a very good case for retaining control of most of our food production

I read somewhere that it was about the mid 1700s.

What happens if we have widespread floods as we do at present, farmers cannot plant crops or lose those which were growing?

Rice? Tea? Coffee?
Should I turn the garden over to a tea plantation?
Or perhaps all those flooded meadows could be turned into paddy fields.

Callistemon I was trying to find the last time the UK was self-sufficient in food. I found an article stating that we imported very little during the Napoleonic Wars, but there was widespread starvation when the harvests failed. I think we'd probably have to go back the the Middle Ages. Even then, we imported spices from the Far East.

I disagree with you Davidhs that the UK could easily be self-sufficient in food, without dramatic increases in yields through various techniques. Somehow or other, the country would need to double the amount of food it produces. That would likely involve agri-businesses, using more intensive farming, more chemicals and GM.

In any case, the government seems determined to do the opposite. It can't be a coincidence that the statement by the adviser about agriculture and fishing not being important coincides with the reduction in subsidies to farmers.

NfkD I think that Canadian wheat combined with wheat grown in the UK is combined to make bread. It makes the best flour when mixed. We only import a small percentage of wheat.

Davidhs we have not been self-sufficient In food production for about 250 years.
Could we do so - I am not so sure.
Do we want to? No, because we are used to eating a variety of foods and people would be resistant to going back to a restricted diet.
Because, too, we want to export foods and drink where we produce a surplus and trade deals are usually reciprocal.

We may be an island but we do not want to become insular.

Hydroponic Glasshouses. There is one near me, very efficient, all the waste goes into an anaerobic digester which produces methane to heat the greenhouse and produce electricity for lighting. They produce tomatoes year round cheaper than imported, if you get the chance organize a tour for a group they would be delighted to show you. Cheaper Labour in Spain is a myth they don’t want to do manual work any more than UK workers

Perhaps this link that I first posted about a year ago has renewed interest www.iddri.org/en/publications-and-events/study/agroecological-europe-2050-multifunctional-agriculture-healthy-eating

It's summary states:

SUSTAINABLE FOOD FOR 530 MILLION EUROPEANS
The TYFA scenario is based on generalising agroecology, abandoning imports of plant proteins and adopting healthier diets by 2050. Despite an induced decline in production of 35% compared to 2010 (in Kcal), this scenario:

– feeds Europeans healthily while maintaining export capacity;
– reduces Europe’s global food footprint;
– results in a 40% reduction in agricultural GHG emissions;
– and helps to restore biodiversity and to protect natural resources.

- which is what most of us want.

The UK could easily feed itself at home today, granted we would not have the choice of produce or many tropical foods that we have today, basic food, it could be done.

That is not the choice we face today, do we want food produced to UK standards or to lower standards from overseas. After WW1 farming went into steep decline with the cheapest option from across the globe imported, nobody considered welfare, or growth promoters or the environment. Much farmland went out of production almost to a subsistence level, then came WW2 the UK had no farming infrastructure, only with massive imports of machinery was it able to recover.

The CAP is designed to ensure Europe is self sufficient in most commodities, it has been very successful, not only can we feed ourselves but we can improve quality and environmental standards as well. Those higher standards have to be paid for and the cost is passed on in higher prices, even so food has never been cheaper, the average worker has to work less hours to feed the family than ever before.

This has been achieved by farms being much more efficient, larger units selling direct to the supermarkets, those retailers becoming closely involved in the production methods and standards. You can compare it with “just in time” you hear about in factory production.

If UK production is reduced some foods could easily be sourced overseas, Wheat, Chilled meat are two examples, tropical fruit would not change, it is fresh food that would cause problems. If it is not grown here Europe is the only alternative, so vegetables, potatoes and salads would be grown in Eastern Europe or the Mediterranean.

We will again be dependent on others to feed the nation, maybe you don’t care about that as long as it is cheap. If that is the case should hope that the EU stays together, if it splits up into countries or regions that are fighting each other for advantage, the risk of conflict and supply disruption increases.

On one hand Brexit is about independence on the other we are becoming more dependent on others for supplies of all sorts.

Interesting twitter thread on the effects of intensive farming (fields, rather than under cover) on soil and water retention. I think it's relevant to this discussion

(and no, your computer doesn't get infected with deadly viruses if you open a link to twitter)

twitter.com/denny_robert/status/1234792688161099776

The UK hasn't lived on what we grow here for hundreds of years. The only way the UK could be even close to self-sufficient would be by adopting new farming techniques.

(I got my seasons muddled there! - When winter comes. Idiot!)

I notice our local fruit farm now seems to be re-using the plastic on the poly tunnels for early fruit. It gets pealed back in summer and dragged back over when summer comes.

Apparently we import wheat from Canada and export our wheat to them. Different wheats for different things. I just though wheat is wheat! We probably could grow enough food to feed everyone but if we have to live on what we grown here our diet will become quite boring. Really, really boring!

Green houses (glass?) Good, polytunnels Bad, surely?

We just shouldn't be using all that plastic.

There is a gigantic greenhouse complex on the Isle of Thanet in Kent www.thanetearth.com/. West Sussex has the largest concentration of glass houses in Britain. We used to drive through them, when visiting my parents who lived in the area in retirement.

They're grown hydroponically, which means they need less water. There are acres of hydroponic tunnels in South East Hertfordshire (and probably other areas too). They need more electricity than Spanish tunnels because there isn't as much natural warmth and light. It's still cheaper to produce tomatoes in Spain than it is in the UK, especially during winter months. Spain also has lower wages, which will increasingly be an issue if low paid workers are prevented from coming to the UK.

There are acres and acres of polytunnels in Spain where the salad crops are grown. It may be warmer, of course, but they are still under polythene.
Costa del Polythene as it is now known, visible from space.

IMO it's downright stupid to abandon home-grown agriculture for the reasons mentioned above. It's also pretty stupid not to realise that grain can be produced much more cheaply and efficiently on US prairies and winter salad crops can be produced without artificial heating/lighting in Spain. That's why countries need trade. We scratch each other's backs.

1832. The year of The Great Reform Act. I am reading about it (and the Corn Laws, and Catholic Emancipation) at the moment

Thank you growstuff

Actually, I did learn about the Corn Laws but, for some reason, the syllabus then only went up to 1832 so I didn't know they had been repealed. Presumably others who took 'A' level History would have carried on from 1832. I couldn't wait to drop it but now find it all much more interesting.