New Labour LEADER

Whitewave2, thanks for copying out that information about KS as DPP and the Saville scandal. Starmer's record as a lawyer and at the DPP is good enough to withstand scrutiny.
That's what he was knighted for, services to public service. He's the best thing that happened to the LP and in turn, to this country in a good while.
He has a huge challenge ahead in beginning to form the LP into an effective opposition and government in waiting.

pogs good post and I take it that you have put the flopping claim to one side and conceded defeat on that one.

Starmers “mixed review” as DPP lead to his knighthood. So by that I assume you mean - good, better,best.?

Of course pogs your claim that you are disarmingly pretty neutral and your interests only lay in the political sparing between the parties, would be much more believable if they contained the occasional criticism of the Tory party??.

But not to worry, I know where your agenda lies.

'pogs good post and I take it that you have put the flopping claim to one side and conceded defeat on that one.'
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Not at all Whitewave!

I'll tell you one thing I see as Flip flopping /Volte Face/ U Turn./ Damascene moment.

As for the letter to The President of The Board Of Deputies of British Jews, Marie van der Zil.

That was long overdue and I am glad he has hit the ground running on that.

I have to say I find it will be astoundingly hypocritical of those who have challenged myself and other posters ' for years ' over antisemitism in the Labour Party, to now have some sort of Damascene Moment, do a total U Turn, a Volte Face, Flip Flop now Corbyn has gone.

For years they have argued antisemitism in Labour was all a lie, a conspiracy against Corbyn, must be Tories, the hated Red Rag liars, even disbelieving the Labour MP's and Councillors who were telling of their vile abuse within the Labour Party, yet now Corbyn has gone they can and will do a total U Turn, a Volte Face, Flip Flop and and admit it was all true by praising Starmer for finally taking action.

Had Corbyn never become Labour Leader, or had Corbyn done the right thing the Jewish Labour voters, Labour MP's and Councillors who suffered the intolerance and abuse would never have left, would they?

So definitely no flip flopping on Starmers part?

I think many who normally vote Labour may be hoping that Momentum and their somewhat malevolent web will be kicked into the long grass.

Surely many of those who "normally vote Labour" will want Momentum to become a more cross-party movement and, rather than being "kicked into the long grass" become a part of the party that fulfils a balance of spontaneity against the long and sometimes rather tedious but necessary processes of a bottom-up, democratic party.

I often but not always vote Labour and that is what I would hope for. Perhaps - radical thought, I know - not all Labour voters think the same as you Callistemon.

In this new found spirit of neutrality pogs I fully expect you to turn your big guns now on the islamophobia and anti- semitism in the Tory party.

POGS, obviously you don't have to answer but I wonder if you are a Labour member or voter?

If not, I wonder what value your opinions are to those members and voters who are, at the moment. Now is the time, for those who would like to see successful social democracy in this country, to simply ignore the nay-sayers and destroyers and give this team a chance to build a government in waiting.

Meanwhile, those who only want a puppet opposition could start by going on other threads and telling us what the Conservative exit strategy is, why we haven't got testing in place and why they tried to destroy the NHS.

I am not sure I understand whitewave, I have never criticised the Tories on this thread either, or on the thread about the labour leadership election, I have never voted for them either. I dont understand your point.

I was brought up Labour but have usually voted Lib Dem, occasionally voting Labour; however I felt unable to do so in recent years. I know others who continued to vote Labour through gritted teeth, at the same time worrying about the influence of Momentum and wanting them gone.
But, of course, everyone will have different views.
It should be a broad church but would the Momentum group be happy to be part of that if they are used to being in control?

Whitewavemark2 the Tory Party is not an offshoot of a much larger organisation such as the Parliamentary Labour Party are.

Grandad do you really see the LP as simply and only an offshoot of the unions? I really don't think that is how many voters feel. Perhaps what you are saying is that this is all you would want it to be?

If it is, in actuality, a Trades Union Party could someone point me in the direction of another socially democratic party? There was my thinking they were a part but not the whole.

It should be a broad church but would the Momentum group be happy to be part of that if they are used to being in control?

We won't know unless they try.

In a way, becoming leader at this time gives KS some opportunities he wouldn’t otherwise have had. I think this will work against Momentum who will seem increasingly irrelevant and out of touch. I think his letter to the BOD is brilliant. Note he wants a video conference with the whole range of Jewish organisations not just the BOD who despite many beliefs to the contrary only represent part of the totality of the Jewish community. That’s a very shrewd start imo. POGS you must think some of us have come up on the down train ?

It's going to be interesting.

galaxy ? sorry I have been supposed to have been talking mostly to pogs this morning.

I’m very good at confusing the issue. Which post are you talking about?

callistum momentum would like to think that they are in control, but they have no voting power neither do they influence the majority of the members. Day to day the local Labour Party in every town and city in the country are what matters. That is why what I see on the ground so often simply does not chime with what the media are saying.

suzie giving my head a wobble and coming up on the down train ?? my world has expanded so much reading your posts?

I have no idea of Pogs political leanings, I just get a little tired of those who are critical of some aspects of the labour party being called tory.

I was brought up Labour but have usually voted Lib Dem, occasionally voting Labour; however I felt unable to do so in recent years.

Callistemon I believe the Liberal Party are still firmly wedded to neoliberalism. I have never been able to understand how someone looking for social democracy could see that as a way to achieve it. It has now, apparently, been abandoned by even the Financial Times:

If there is a silver lining to the Covid-19 pandemic, it is that it has injected a sense of togetherness into polarised societies. But the virus, and the economic lockdowns needed to combat it, also shine a glaring light on existing inequalities — and even create new ones. Beyond defeating the disease, the great test all countries will soon face is whether current feelings of common purpose will shape society after the crisis. As western leaders learnt in the Great Depression, and after the second world war, to demand collective sacrifice you must offer a social contract that benefits everyone.

When the Liberals subsumed the Social Democrats there was no movement in their direction. I actually can't see how they could. I can see no way you could see a similarity between the recent LDs and a possibly social-democratic LP. I would keep voting Liberal if you have their values. I can't see how social democracy or even social conservatism could appeal to a Liberal with their fundamental valuing of neoliberal economics.

I have no idea of Pogs political leanings, I just get a little tired of those who are critical of some aspects of the labour party being called tory.

I missed that Galaxy. Which post are you referring to?

I was confused about it myself Gracesgran. Whitewave seemed to be saying that pogs should also criticise the tories and that her lack of criticism of the tories was somehow suspicious. I have no idea of pogs political leanings and care even less, but for those of us who were critical of Corbyn being called a tory is a common 'insult'.

As anti-semitism has raised its head again I now worry that the LP will ditch the Palestinian cause and leave them to struggle alone. If anyone doubts that it was Corbyn's stance on Palestine that caused some of the anti-semitism accusations read the post election article by a Jewish activist electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/we-slaughtered-jeremy-corbyn-says-israel-lobbyist
And before anyone starts to accuse me of anti-semitism I don't think this is a Jewish conspiracy, I don't think all Jews were involved, I do think stopping Palestine gaining any political recognition is a cause for some.

Not forgetting his support for the anti Semitic wall mural

Annie do you care about Palestinians who are dying in Gaza and who lack medical care? Or is a wall mural as far as your sympathies extend?

Whitewavemark2 Sun 05-Apr-20 09:22:25

'So definitely no flip flopping on Starmers part?'
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Have you forgotten the so-called Labour ‘ Chicken Coup ’ in 2016 ?

Labour MP's tried to topple Corbyn and Starmer will be remembered for his resignation letter and part in that by the Far Left/Corbyn/Momentum group.

Starmer resigned from Corbyns Shadow Cabinet when he was Shadow Minister of State for Immigration in the Shadow Foreign Office. He resigned, along with many other Labour MP's stating in his resignation letter :-

" I have maintained my support for you… However. the resignations… materially change this. It is simply untenable now to suggest that we can offer an effective opposition without A CHANGE OF LEADER ."

During the subsequent Leadership battle Starmer backed Corbyns rival candidate Owen Smith but when Smith lost and Corbyn resumed as Labour Leader Starmer flip flopped, had a Damascene moment and went back into the Shadow Cabinet under Corbyn and accepted an appointment as Shadow Brexit secretary.

I remember there were posters who were quite abusive and unforgiving toward those Labour MP's who resigned such as Starmer but again ' hypocrisy' will see some posters have a selective loss of memory in their quest to be seen as happy to now back Starmer.
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Starmer often flip flopped oner Brexit. As Shadow Brexit Minister he changed his tune regularly, the message was mixed and jumbled. I literally watched him one Sunday being interviewed by Sophie Ridge and Andrew Marr and he said two different things over the Second Referendum, just as an example.

Another example would be one minute Starmer stated "freedom of movement will have to end.", the next minute ???

As for your personal jibes re my politics Whitewave, using your silly emojis, I reiterate my comment earlier up thread:-

" I reserve my judgement on Starmer as I believe him to be a flip-flopper who tells interviewers and the media what he thinks they want to hear rather than sticking to his guns but time will tell and I wish him well."

I have never voted labour in my life but I am so pleased that Rebecca Long-Bailey did not win. He has said he will work with the government in these troubled times.