Keir Starmer’s patience has finally run out.

Actually lemon as one completely on the other side of the political fence that made me laugh! In a nice way!

FFS GG when will you understand that we don’t like to be lectured or spoken down to.

I ‘need to understand the limits of [my] experience’ you say. Really?

That says it all about your attitude to other people. I am well aware of my limited experience in some areas and I’m equally aware of my vast experience in others. These you know nothing about and that’s how I prefer it.

I’m pretty sure that the other posters are just like me.

Try for a little humility and emotional intelligence and you will find it helps. Listen to others and if you disagree try to do so amicably. We all sometimes get it wrong and react too strongly but then we can always say sorry.

That isn't funny LG. It is a pointlessly nasty comment. Why?

That was for Furret

Dinah if everybody put IMHO all the time in every post where it’s an opinion it would make for very tedious reading.
Joelsnan am afraid we just have to accept ( on GN) that all those who voted to remain in the EU are wonderful in every way.

Experiencial learning is perfectly valid and I think that this is what people think they base their opinions on Furret but you need to understand the limits of your experience or you may still reach the wrong conclusion. I think the thing I find most difficult is the entrenched feelings of others. Surely we will never learn unless we are prepared to say - but you may know more, explain, tell me.

The problem with any group being so entrenched is that anyone wishing to discuss something ends up feeling they are becoming equally but oppositely entrenched just to try and get a point across to someone who hits the ceiling if you disagree with their view. It's why I leave from time to time as I feel I am being bounced into being someone I am not. This is my "umpteenth" time of return, as my "new" name says and I fear it may be my last. Trying to explain is exhausting - talking in real life to those who tread as carefully on my feelings as I would wish to tread on theirs is not.

Dinah one can make logical assumptions in everyday live without empirical facts. Until we have something that can be strapped onto someone’s head, pick up and read brain signals we will do what humans have done for years - read facial expressions, body language and listen to their words.

Without this the human race would not have survived

Scenario: Stone Age hunters
Hunter 1 Fred ‘That bear looks angry. Run!’
Hunter 2 Barney ‘Where is your evidence for that opinion Fred?’

Back at Cave
Common Law Wife ‘Where is Barney?’
Fred ‘IMO the bear got him!’

With evidence, or is it just your opinion that Leavers did not give facts?

I will put my hands in the air, Joelsnan and say that you have always been an honourable exception.

But mostly discussing anything with a Leaver was frustrating because we were rarely given any facts and, if we were, we weren't given the evidence for them. I don't think, for e.g that you'd find many links to back up what they are saying on a Leaver's post.

I don't think anyone wants to trawl back through hundreds of posts to prove that though.

Dinahmo
Seeing as you are do keen on giving fact and not opinion
Please support your statement:
I and many others (nearly all Remainers) gave facts whereas others (mainly leavers) just gave their opinions. Those that provided facts were often derided for doing so
With evidence, or is it just your opinion that Leavers did not give facts?
selective hearing and comprehension does occasionally cause issues.

GGumteenth So many people on here write as though their opinions were facts. I try to remember to insert IMO or IMHO when I'm writing.

I listened to James O'Brien on LBC a lot last year during the Brexit debates. He was constantly asking people for facts in support of their opinions which they could not give. I and many others (nearly all Remainers) gave facts whereas others (mainly leavers) just gave their opinions. Those that provided facts were often derided for doing so.

GGumt it’s all opinion!

No, of course, it isn't. Why address me and then deconstruct the OP. I didn't write it. First you talk about yourself and now the OP. Where does that take us?

My post is not all opinion and where it is it is flagged as that, e.g., I don't think so I obviously don't expect it to be treated as fact.

However: We have still got a very high 'R', even if it is the right side of 1. We also have a test an[d] trace service which is not yet fit for purpose. are facts or what I obviously believe the facts to be. I then conclude from that We therefore have two simple choices. We either take time pulling back from lockdown and get our T and T up to a standard so that it will actually provide more protection or we prioritise drawing back from lockdown and risk many more deaths.

If you have other or further facts to add which prove or disprove my conclusion then tell me, I would truly be interested and like to grow my knowledge.

It's not that important - just confusing as to why you address me about what the OP wrote and what are basically your feelings. I am interested in why you conclude what you conclude not just some airy, fairy feeling. I don't know you so why would I be? Different tribes LG. That's all can get to. Half base things on feelings - even if they are not based on true facts - and the other half want the facts to build an opinion and don't, or try not to, confuse the two.

GGumt it’s all opinion! To say that Starmer is running out of patience is an opinion.
I would say that he is happy and confident in his new role, after all, being in Opposition when we are having such a hard time as a country is usually a godsend for the other side.
To take the points in the OP one by one:
Every leader of every country is ‘winging it’ on easing lockdown, the results are unknown, but it has to be tried, we cannot stay locked down forever.
It’s only used ( the dead cat theory) to further discredit Johnson, in any case, Scotland, NI and Wales all eased lockdown regulations at the same time ( they aren’t seeking to help Cummings!)
Simply saying that Johnson has to ‘get a grip’ doesn’t mean that he hasn’t done, so far he and other ministers are doing all they can.
Ditto, saying there is no exit strategy doesn’t mean there isn’t.
The government have said all along that easing restrictions all depends on what then happens, and it will be done in baby steps.Caution at every stage.

Other countries are doing much the same.Starmer is the Opposition and has to be seen as opposing, that’s all it is.

9am on Monday

What time WW, please?

This may interest those interested in the government's handling of the pandemic.

www.facebook.com/scientistsforeu/videos/871197240058225/

I see Starmer is doing a half hour monthly slot to answer questions on LBC.

I shall listen to the first one.

How about replying to the bit that doesn't relate directly to you LG? I was just separating fact from opinion. So you give us more opinion. "wilful paralysis of Parliament" is not what this thread is about.

Try talking about politics rather than people and talk about the second paragraph which brought us back on topic.

‘Doing the right thing’.....for those who actually voted for Brexit.
The wilful paralysis of Parliament was unblocked by Johnson getting into power with such a large majority, and meeting the Jan deadline for us leaving the EU.
I think there were more than a few people in the UK who were happy with that.It was one of the things that he was elected for and was in the Conservative manifesto.

If reports are to be believed (and they come from reputable sources and go back years) Boris is not work orientated. This is why he comes unprepared to PMQs and doesn’t have any genuine answers only waffle and bluff. That’s why he’s known as Blustering Boris.

sometimes gets it right.ie.Brexit

I do hope the work they do with children teaches them more than some learned in their schooling. When my grandson was about seven (he is now nine, so this is current) he was ask to write five things about a favourite adult that were facts and five that were opinions. Perhaps we should send all adults back to learn how to differentiate between these. It is not a fact that Brexit is "doing the right thing", we will not know that for many years, maybe decades. Boris is not known for "doing the right thing" there is far more factual evidence that he often doesn't. The fact that his opinion and yours are occasionally the same is not evidence that he is currently the right man for the job LG. Sadly though we currently have to make do with him.

I don't think KS has run out of patience. He is simply trying to be the constructive but critical part of the government, as is his job. We have two things which have the potential to add to the current disaster right now. We have still got a very high 'R', even if it is the right side of 1. We also have a test an trace service which is not yet fit for purpose. We therefore have two simple choices. We either take time pulling back from lockdown and get our T and T up to a standard so that it will actually provide more protection or we prioritise drawing back from lockdown and risk many more deaths. We can see which Johnson has chosen so he needs to explain why and what the consequences will be, not attack childishly and personally the man doing his job as reasoned critic of the government.

The thing is WWM2 that the brief time in the Commons for PMQ’s is a very tiny part of what the PM does.It’s not a court of law, and if any PM’s becomes short in their tone or snappy etc it really doesn’t matter much.
I would agree that Starmer is the more ‘moral’ human being from all I have read, but that doesn’t matter much either in what makes a good PM ( as opposed to a good man.)
It’s all about what he does for the country over the next few years, he won’t have the luxury of ‘normal times’ of course,
And the next year in particular would test the greatest PM ever to have lived.

No hiding place for Boris at PMQs

John Crace nails it again. Always worth reading his articles.

Indeed yes, Pantglas. But there are general principles that apply to elegant American English and elegant British English. One of those principles is expressiveness without thoughtless cliches.

I think the point has been made Alexa about how language and written English changes over the decades and what once would have been seen as an Americanism is common usage.

lemon But you must see that he is simply not cut out for the job? He isn’t as bright as he led us to believe, in fact he’s a bit dim and against Starmer it is like a lamb to the slaughter and Johnson knows it. You have only to look at his body language and to listen to him to know that he can’t cope with the questioning in PMQs .
Johnson is clearly very uncomfortable facing a man of superior intellect and morality. That is why he resorted to anger yesterday. That in the absence of any preparation or control Johnson became snappy and defensive.

As for the letter, it is common practice for the pm to reply directly to the leader of the opposition usually by another letter, however Johnson didn’t. Anyway he wishes to spin or lie about it he didn’t reply to Starmer as is common courtesy.

Instead he used a joint conference call as the excuse for his discourtesy. He lied his way out of the question as is common practice for Johnson.

Why say "back in the eighties" when "in the eighties" is concise and sufficient?

"Back in" is American popular vernacular . I wonder why the irritating and superfluous phrase has become popular in England.