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Woke Identitarianism

(60 Posts)
Baggs Fri 19-Jun-20 07:24:29

An essay by Inaya Folarin Iman

3nanny6 Fri 19-Jun-20 15:10:56

Growstuff you are being entirely rude yourself.

Lammy the M.P cannot stand Munira Mirza and her politics and views. Also Priti Patel who was well criticized for assuming she knows all about rascism. She herself was criticized for saying in her speech about the coronavirus how she felt the brunt of racism while at school because she was different and called a"Paki". Everybody said she should not have brought her personal experience into the equation.

I find you patronizing and you are unable to take on board the views I expressed you are blinkered. It is people like yourself that are dangerous because you are denying my view the same views as David Lammy but I expect he is wrong as well.

growstuff Fri 19-Jun-20 16:20:50

I give up!

You have been extremely rude to me.

I know David Lammy can't stand Munira Mirza. I can't stand her politics either.

That article is about denying racism and I disagree with it. Unlike the writer of the article, I do thing Black Lives Matters is important. Mirza, Badenoch, Patel and the writer of the article are all trying to say BLM doesn't matter. They're trying to undermine people like David Lammy and nothing will be done.

I must admit that I've never been called names by anybody on GN when I'm on the same side. Absolutely ridiculous!

I'll leave you to it 3nanny6.

Baggs Fri 19-Jun-20 16:39:54

What the article is essentially claiming is that racism doesn't exist.

That wasn't how I understood it at all, gs. As I understand it, identitarianism pushes racial differences to the fore as if someone's racial characteristics, over which they have no control, are of greater importance than their personal human characteristics, their character, how they behave.

growstuff Fri 19-Jun-20 16:57:39

Baggs I'm about to do something else, so not going to write much.

It's all part of the critical race theory argument. Essentially, the people who advocate the kind of argument in the article do deny institutional racism. It's all part of a much bigger debate. It's an ultra-conservative argument.

PS. Am I allowed to write that? Or will I be jumped again? hmm

Baggs Fri 19-Jun-20 17:27:05

And yet it is the argument I was brought up with by my socialist father.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 19-Jun-20 17:33:23

baggs arguments evolve and change over time. That’s the way we progress.

Fennel Fri 19-Jun-20 17:36:48

I'm sorry Baggs but I can't read anything with the use of that word 'woke'.
It clashes with all my feelings for our language and I hate it.

Baggs Fri 19-Jun-20 17:42:09

No need to apologise to me, fennel. It is not my invention.

Baggs Fri 19-Jun-20 17:46:41

I get that arguments evolve over time, ww, but I can't see what has evolved in a good way about this argument. In essence, the question is what is more important, a person's character or a person's unchosen and unchangeable characteristics.

I'm ready to be convinced by a good argument on any subject and have changed my mind on many issues over the years as arguments evolved. So far I haven't seen a convincing argument that personal characteristics, in my case typically northern hemisphere pale skin, mousey hair, grey eyes, are more important than my behaviour towards other people.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 19-Jun-20 18:26:48

The article begins by suggesting that racial equality has accomplished great strides legally in the U.K. over the past decades, even where society has faced setbacks.

It recognises that there is still much to be done.

However the argument then makes a huge leap that suggests that a movement (unspecified) has failed to recognised the gains made over the past decades, whilst suggesting that the argument of a “colourblind* society is itself a racist argument. It fails to understand the fundamental tenants of identity theory, which is a theory of group based identity and much wider in conception that race.

According to identity politics (I won’t use the slang term “woke”) people should be judged by their shared identity and in this case ethnic and cultural origins. Identity politics maintains that unless we recognise ethnic and cultural background, we can never understand the issues surrounding
them.

So rather than seeing identity politics as an ideology specific to racial issues as the article appears to argue, it is in fact an ideology that describes the way groups identify themselves in society, like white supremacists, LGBT, nationalists, etc.

That will do for the time ? I’ve only addressed a bit of the argument I know, but you will lose the will to live baggs if I chunter on too much

Whitewavemark2 Fri 19-Jun-20 18:39:52

I think although I may be incorrect, that identity politics has evolved out of cultural studies.

Prof. Stuart Hall was one of the founding figures of this British school of thought

janeainsworth Fri 19-Jun-20 18:41:48

Ww I apologise in advance if this is a stupid question, but I am genuinely wondering.
According to identity politics (I won’t use the slang term “woke”) people should be judged by their shared identity and in this case ethnic and cultural origins

If people are ‘judged by their shared identity‘, how does that differ from stereotyping?

Whitewavemark2 Fri 19-Jun-20 19:16:07

Can I just say that I’m not a proponent of identity politics.

The difference between stereotyping and identity politics is that they are polar opposites.

You know what stereotyping means. It is a subjective concept. It identifies others with particular characteristics often incorrectly.

Well, identity politics is about self identity. It is about how the individual sees herself within society.

It is the way in which individuals identify with others with similar ideology or cultural background, and the way this lived experience has instructed their lives.

I’m not explaining this very well am I?

janeainsworth Fri 19-Jun-20 19:25:44

I get that identity politics is about self identification ww but in the quote, you did say it was about how people should be judged, presumably by others, which sounds more like your definition of stereotyping.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 19-Jun-20 19:38:00

No, I think what I meant that people will self identify around a particular axis, and this axis is how they in turn wish to be identified.

I can understand the attractiveness of identifying with say being Asian, but you are more than that. You may be a woman or disabled My criticism of this theory is that it is reductive. That individuals are more than the sum of one particular axis, that by identifying as say Asian, it precludes other lived experiences like being a woman or disabled.

Baggs Fri 19-Jun-20 19:42:05

So, ww, why isn't the apparent (self) identity politics of people like Priti Patel, Munira Mirza and Katharine Birbalsingh accepted as valid? Is it just because they also self identify as politically conservative?

Baggs Fri 19-Jun-20 19:44:18

That post was written before your latest, ww, which sort of answers my question.

Baggs Fri 19-Jun-20 19:44:41

...before I saw...

Eloethan Fri 19-Jun-20 22:55:25

Well, it's quite interesting that Ms Iman was a Brexit Party candidate for Leeds North East, so hardly apolitical.

Also interestingly, in an essay/article she wrote in 2017 she seemed to have a very different take on the issue of racism:

" Like many other black people, for a long time I felt cheated - no matter what I achieved or how hard I strived I could not escape the structural oppression associatiated with "blackness".

She said her mother was highly educated, and she herself attended private schools and boarding school at secondary level but later moved to a local school. She quotes her new headmaster as saying, when she said she was nervous starting a new school:

"There are plenty of black people here, don't you worry".

Given that sort of comment, the division across racial lines that she found in the local school is hardly surprising, neither is the commonplace racism that she experienced. She says she "longed for acceptance" and, perhaps because of these feelings of loneliness and alienation, she began finding out a lot more about her Yoruba heritage and "found pride and stability with it".

She concludes: "It shows that even relatively privileged black people struggle to escape the constraints of racism. We are seen as being a skin colour before we are seen as a person."

It then seems rather perverse of her to be lauding the great strides that have been made in race relations over the last decades. Perhaps, given her upper middle class family background and a good educational grounding, including university, the issue of being black is not now so significant for her as it continues to be for others. As she says, class is also a major issue, but if you are working class and black you have two sets of prejudices to contend with instead of one.

I think to say "some argue that the appeal of a colour blind society is is in itself a racist idea" and "we should emphasize racial difference and think along racial lines" is a misrepresentation. Given all the negative stereotypes that black people have experienced, it may be seen as important to recognise and celebrate your race rather than be made to feel ashamed of it.

She goes on to say that there is now a growing movement which puts forward the idea that "every aspect, every facet and every detail of our lives, history and culture are explicitly or implicitly complicit in racism" and that there are now "hierarchies of victimhood" - the higher in this hierarchy you are, the more superior you are.

I think she misrepresents by exaggeration these so-called "woke" ideas (I do hate that word). Undoubtedly the UK (and many other countries) has a history of the most cruel and inexcusable racism from which we have all benefited. We are not to blame for what has happened historically but we are complicit in that racism if we continue to deny its current existence and to celebrate the British Empire and the people who helped to maintain its power and influence by means of subjugation and exploitation.

Perhaps Ms Iman saw it as a sign she had finally been accepted when she was given the opportunity to stand as a (failed) candidate for the Brexit Party in Leeds North East - that her colour was finally irrelevant. Some might think that, rather than being "colour blind", the Brexit Party would have found her a particularly suitable candidate to distance itself from UKIP, which even Farage had said he could no longer support because of its racism. Or perhaps she reached the conclusion that if you, as a black person, took a contrary view on the issue of racism, you would corner a "niche" market and be more able to further your journalistic ambitions.

growstuff Fri 19-Jun-20 23:16:00

Thanks for posting that Eloethan. Strangely enough, my own MP (Kemi Badenoch) has sometimes related an identical background. She now denies that structural racism exists, although she has in the past related about how she was viewed at a school in London. She has also told a few not quite true stories (lies) about her upbringing in Nigeria, where her mother is a professor and her father a doctor, working for the WHO. She also spent some of her childhood in America, while her father was at Harvard. It's a little worrying because she is now the Minister for Equalities.

She dismisses people who claim there is racism with the same kind of argument as Priti Patel did ie. "I'm a black woman and I'm successful, so therefore there isn't any racism".

It must be a Conservative narrative.

growstuff Fri 19-Jun-20 23:21:02

Baggs Katharine Birbalsingh is the daughter of an eminent Professor of English. It annoys me that she even brings race into arguments. Given the circles in which she was brought up and has subsequently moved, it is entirely possible that she hasn't experienced the kind of racism which the children whom she now champions, have experienced.

growstuff Fri 19-Jun-20 23:21:52

All of them, by the way, are part of a clique centred round "Spike", the Spectator and Toby Young.

Eloethan Fri 19-Jun-20 23:50:06

growstuff. I didn't realise Toby Young was part of this little circle. The man who thought it would be a doddle to open and run a "free" school without any teaching experience, and who resigned not that long afterwards, saying he didn't think it was going to be that difficult!

The man who has discussed his support for "progressive eugenics" (apparently, selecting embryos for higher intelligence - fortunately for him it didn't exist when he was conceived) and who stated recently ""spending £350 billion to prolong the lives of a few hundred thousand mostly elderly people is an irresponsible use of taxpayer's money."

Nice people.

growstuff Sat 20-Jun-20 01:09:47

They are part of Young's "Free Speech Union".

growstuff Sat 20-Jun-20 01:12:18

Imam has now started writing for the Daily Mail, so her views will become more mainstream.