Holding the government to account for Covid-19 care home deaths

The "oven ready"plan for social care, like the "world beating" track and trace system and the "oven ready" brexit deal are all figments of BJ's imagination-they do not exist

In other words they are lies to hoodwink the stupidest and most credulous voters.

GGumteenth

I'm sorry you are confused but I rather think it comes from confusing me. After your rather attacking style I felt this Perhaps news from 7 months ago is slightly out-of-date, GGUmpteenth and I know things have changed rapidly but this report was from November 2019: was aimed at me. Trying to work out why you couldn't see what you said I realised you may have meant it to refer to your own quote. If you read it again it could be either. You were not specific.

No, it wasn't aimed at you at all, it was more of an explanation that what I was posting was rather out-of-date from November last year about the huge profits made out of privately owned care homes which total about 84% of the sector. I thought it might be relevant.

rather attacking style, if it was, was aimed at these people not you.
A misunderstanding, I think.

GGumpteeth

I'd been puzzling over yours and Callistomen's 'problem' and wondering how to intervene without getting drawn in..

Your post @ 10.59 seems to me to explain the misunderstanding well, thanks for doing it. It had taken me a little while to work out what she was saying. It is ambiguous.

But I do hope that you're both back on track now..

I agree that the government should be held to account. While they were concerned to prioritise getting PPE to hospitals it was the government which gave the contract for the provision of emergency stocks to a private firm and failed to provide any oversight. It's become clear that the private company mismanaged the stocks, chaotic storage and logistics, out of date equipment, strange counting practices...

Then there was the instruction to send patients back to care homes, without testing, in order to empty hospital beds in preparation for the anticipated demand.

And while there are some large companies extracting large profits from their care homes many 'private' care homes are run on a much smaller scale by individuals and charities, which don't have the capability which the big providers have to make economies of scale.

A 2017 report which I've turned up says that there were some 11,300 care homes in the UK with 5,500 providers. That's an average of about 2 homes per provider, isn't it? If the large providers have multiple homes that must leave an awful lot with just one; therefore not much clout for bulk buying.

It is to be hoped that there will be a far reaching inquiry into the whole issue of care homes and the coronavirus emergency. I don't think the government will come out of it smelling of roses..

The Government (especially that pipsqueak Matt Hancock) are very good at asserting how protective the Government has been of care homes.

MIL's care home had someone sent from hospital to their care home who had been tested for the virus but discharged before the results were back because they wanted the bed.

He had caught the virus in hospital and it was very fortunate that the care home managed to isolate him and no-one else there caught the virus. Other care homes were not so fortunate.

When Johnson made a speech outside No.10 on his first day as PM he said he had "an oven-ready" plan for social care. Well, where is it? No-one has produced one as far as I have seen.

In the meantime, thousands of lives have been lost earlier than they needed to have been. That's about the only thing he's been proved right about.

I still don't understand and refute your allegations where you state I defend this government and think they can do no wrong.

Adding distraction to a discussion is usually designed to detract from the original transgressor. Talk about Care Home owners all you like (preferably on a thread others can ignore) but why insist it their fault when the OP was about taking the government to court over the excess deaths they caused by their action (or inaction)?

Threads do go off track but your continuous attempt to make the Care Home owners the main point of the discussion had some of our well know Tory supporters rubbing their hands and agreeing with you while it excluded any discussion of Dr Cathy Gardner's attempt to bring justice for those who died because of the governments unlawful practises.

Perhaps you have just grown used to the governments behaviour and do not believe they can be held to account but I am glad Dr Gardner is attempting it.

I'm sorry you are confused but I rather think it comes from confusing me. After your rather attacking style I felt this Perhaps news from 7 months ago is slightly out-of-date, GGUmpteenth and I know things have changed rapidly but this report was from November 2019: was aimed at me. Trying to work out why you couldn't see what you said I realised you may have meant it to refer to your own quote. If you read it again it could be either. You were not specific.

GGumteenth

^Can we take it that the long awaited review of Social Care (mooted long before Covid-19) being continually kicked into the long grass is down to these shadowy-but-powerful hedge funds managers and their ilk?^

So you have allowed the very biased report that Callistemon quoted to make you believe that all homes are run by people making millions and syphoning it off into dubious funds Blinko, which is, of course, a long way from the truth.

What about the governments culpability? Or are you too playing the dead cat card in order to deflect them taking any blame?

Well, I am still GGUmpteenth

I never complained about the date of your report at all.

I pointed out that the newspaper item which I quoted from was slightly out of date, being from November 2019 and quoted in my post of Monday 22nd June 19:42:16.

I still don't understand and refute your allegations where you state I defend this government and think they can do no wrong.
I didn't vote for them.
I predicted the haphazard Boris would never become PM.

I admit I was wrong in that instance.

The report I quoted was no more biased than yours as inews is not generally politically biased and I did not think that the CHPI would be biased either.
It does not say that all homes are owned by private investors but 84% is a large proportion.

It is something we should be deeply concerned about and first really came to notice with the Southern Cross scandal.

Their first priority should be a duty of care to their staff and residents and they failed in that duty - yet again.

I'll leave you to it.

If people have been able to offshore the money they have made that may not make them good people but even that is down to the government who even in the opinion of the Tories on here and their fellow travellers, think it is a bad thing that they should be able to do it.

All this thread was about was the government being sued (not for money) for their incompetence which led to lives being lost. I have not come across all these wealthy people in the care system but you obviously have. I have come across kind, caring, loving people who would do all they could to care for the residents. They would also do all they could to protect the residents. Some have died. So have some carers.

If you think care home owners are running the country I have missed an election that brought that about. The government knew this could and most likely would happen. They should have ensured we were prepared. If necessary they could have ensured homes carried stock of PPE over and and above their normal amount. Those who appear to hate care home owners are allowing those feelings to override common logic.

Just re-read your post Callistemon. I quoted the relevant line and it was repeated it in your post of my post.

Just read it.

The home owners however should be responsible for supplying PPE and should have had supplies in stock paddyanne

Then why does the same not apply to this government? The homes ordered them. They paid for them. The government took them. The governments in other countries were organised. All countries knew a pandemic was the next likely challenge. This government actually shut down a committee that dealt with such things when they came to power. The Germans even managed to have a system that charged suppliers with ensuring there was enough PPE.

Surely any government MUST put its electorate first over making savings in taxes for the wealthy and leaving themselves without systems that work to keep us safe?

I agree too paddyann.
I also think it was entirely right for PPE to be firstly directed to the NHS who sorely needed it.
I also think hospitals should have tested care home residents before they sent them back.

paddyanne

I in no way shape or form support ANY tory ,The home owners however should be responsible for supplying PPE and should have had supplies in stock ,it certainly isn't up to the taxpayer in the area to supply PPE to a company sending huge profits to its shareholders.Surely any care provider MUST put his clients/patients first over profit ?

I agree paddyanne
Where did that money disappear to?

GGumteenth

^Perhaps news from 7 months ago is slightly out-of-date, GGUmpteenth and I know things have changed rapidly but this report was from November 2019:^

I notice that, having complained about my source being from last November, yours is from exactly the same period!

It was the annual report from the end of 2019. Do you really think that since then the Care industry has suddenly opened masses of homes after 8 years of decline? Where is your evidence that an eight year decline did not continue into this year where the chance is that more will close as families have removed or not sent their relatives to homes because of Covid? It was a perfectly reasonable report on the statistics.

Your own evidence is insufficient to tell us anything about the conduct of the government. This seems to me your post is just a failed attempt to move the blame from the government which, presumably, you feel can do no wrong.

Let's talk about the subject of the thread which is the possible unlawful conduct of this government. If you want to have a thread about the diversity of Care Home operators why not start one?

I didn't comment at all on the date of your report GGUmpteenth
If you can indicate where I did I'd be grateful.

Why do you say that I think this Government can do no wrong?
If, again, you can indicate where I've ever said that, then I'd be grateful.

I was wondering why these shadowy figures who make so many billions out of the care homes they own and have the
wealth to source and supply the equipment which was needed failed to do so.
They have a duty of care to their staff and those they supposedly care for and they failed in that duty of care.

Is there something wrong with querying that?

I in no way shape or form support ANY tory ,The home owners however should be responsible for supplying PPE and should have had supplies in stock ,it certainly isn't up to the taxpayer in the area to supply PPE to a company sending huge profits to its shareholders.Surely any care provider MUST put his clients/patients first over profit ?

Of course Blair had it wrong, no question. Boris has it very wrong too.

He has in truth got rid of those with experience and is surrounded by wet-behind-the-ears bootlickers. There is only Gove and we know his game,

Just as a matter of interest, would those who are treating the government as if they are 20 year olds in their first job say the same about Blair and the Iraq War. Governments can do things that are wrong and need to be held to account if they do. I should check your own subconscious - or possibly conscious bias.

Pinkcakes, the hospitals were not provided with enough tests. Governments all over the world managed to do it, why do you make excuses for this shower? Governments do not have the second highest death rate - why do you make excuses for this lot?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, Zi genuinely think the government did their best and acknowledge mistakes were made.

What happens when people mismanage to this extent. They are sacked and, if people have died because of what they are done they stand trial. Why are you letting them off the hook? They are in power to manage the country and they have done it so badly far, far more people have died than needed to.

It's what they are paid for and what they volunteered to do. They have lost a great deal of trust and are likely to lose more as the details come out. It is not hindsight that meant we have one of the highest death rates. Defending our country against such things is the governments reason for being given the power to govern.

Hospitals had been sending Covid-19 patients back to care homes without testing them for the virus before they went back. That surely must be the fault of the hospitals

What good would it serve? Hindsight is a wonderful thing, Zi genuinely think the government did their best and acknowledge mistakes were made. Let’s get out of this Pandemic, we are in a lot of debt and need to concentrate in getting the country going for our young people and a good Brexit outcome. Learn from the past but look to the future.

THEY were responsible for the people in their care and as such SHOULD have been providing PPE

The homes were paddyannebut it was commandeered as it came into the country by the government for the NHS.

I can see a real pattern of "let's deflect from the government" on this thread which was about how they let the care sector down and the woman whose taking them to court. I have sent my few pounds to support her - you just keep supporting the Tories and never mind those poor people who died, or their relatives.

Can we take it that the long awaited review of Social Care (mooted long before Covid-19) being continually kicked into the long grass is down to these shadowy-but-powerful hedge funds managers and their ilk?

So you have allowed the very biased report that Callistemon quoted to make you believe that all homes are run by people making millions and syphoning it off into dubious funds Blinko, which is, of course, a long way from the truth.

What about the governments culpability? Or are you too playing the dead cat card in order to deflect them taking any blame?

Sorry ,that care home is being run by NHS HiGHLAND and Islands for now until a final decision is made about it

The care home affected on Skye was/is privately owned by a "national" corporation paying huge amounts of money to shareholders THEY were responsible for the people in their care and as such SHOULD have been providing PPE not complaining about the health board not supplying it,that same company imported staff from Kent during lockdown which may well have been the cause of the outbreak The owners need to answer questions and pay for this.Families spending small fortunes to keep their elderly relatives safe have been let down while the shareholders profit!

Perhaps news from 7 months ago is slightly out-of-date, GGUmpteenth and I know things have changed rapidly but this report was from November 2019:

I notice that, having complained about my source being from last November, yours is from exactly the same period!

It was the annual report from the end of 2019. Do you really think that since then the Care industry has suddenly opened masses of homes after 8 years of decline? Where is your evidence that an eight year decline did not continue into this year where the chance is that more will close as families have removed or not sent their relatives to homes because of Covid? It was a perfectly reasonable report on the statistics.

Your own evidence is insufficient to tell us anything about the conduct of the government. This seems to me your post is just a failed attempt to move the blame from the government which, presumably, you feel can do no wrong.

Let's talk about the subject of the thread which is the possible unlawful conduct of this government. If you want to have a thread about the diversity of Care Home operators why not start one?