Epstein/Maxwell/Prin ce Andrew

Alexa

Some young girls handle early sexualising better than others. Some girls and boys become confused and others become street wise.

Confused, * street wise* What on earth do those words mean? If someone tries to commit suicide/self harms are they 'confused"? Is a sex worker (many of them are abuse survivors) street-wise?

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Oldwoman, I agree with you, and my post above is not meant to excuse abusers of their power as adults especially if they are rich and glamorous adults.

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Some young girls handle early sexualising better than others. Some girls and boys become confused and others become street wise.

eazybee there is absolutely no comparison between the allegations made by one man, not substantiated by medical records or other victims and the investigation the FBI is currently making.

I was suspicious of the allegations made by Carl Beech from day one. I was surprised he wasn't picked up as a fantasist in the early stages of the investigation. He could have been asked to give permission for his medical records to be viewed by a forensic psychologist for example. My concern then was the damage that would be done to the genuine victims if a high profile case fell apart, as it did.

galaxy yes.

We are understanding much more now I think.

I think that you have to give consideration to serial affairs and wives as well, there is certainly something going on there.

I think we are slowly becoming more aware of the issue of abuse of power. I think for example people are beginning to regard Clinton's behaviour toward women with more condemnation than happened at the time.

I can't believe posters are actually saying that these girls "knew what they were doing".

Imagine you are a young teen, you have lived in poor housing with poor education, possibly living on benefits. Suddenly someone comes along who is rich, flatters you, makes a fuss of you and gives you expensive presents and a glimpse of a luxurious lifestyle. After a short time you begin to feel indebted to this person to such an extent you agree to their demands. It is called grooming.

That is why Epstein didn't target any young girls in his own social circle

Reading the statements quoted here from Vera Baird and others I am reminded of similar statements made about the victims and survivors of the paedophile ring described by Carl Beech, and the suppositions made by so many about people concerned, without any basis in factual evidence.

The FBI are using the term, so I assume they are aware of the legal implications.

Thanks trisher, I didn't look up the definition and should have. I usually associate paedophile with crimes against pre pubescent children but your post confirms, we are using it appropriately when discussing Epstein, Maxwell.

They are no different than the men and women involved in the organised exploitation of children often referred to here simply as "the Rochdale cases".

Maxwell cannot be excused for what she did to the victims, but I think that there can be little doubt that she is a damaged individual, if you look at her childhood and the relationship she had with her father. She seems to crave acceptance by powerful dominant men.

Acting as a mother figure when she stroked the victims back or face to pacify the young girls fear as the situation escalated, she assisted Epstein in using his victims, sometimes joining in.

There have been numerous women in history who assisted powerful male characters in carrying out unspeakable acts.

It doesn’t excuse them, but it may explain it.

I had to look it up and there is no legal definition of the word paedophile. There is a lot of discussion and research documents into it. One of the agreed concerns is that physical development by no means coincides with or gives any indicator that a child has the ability to give consent. The age at which a child becomes an adult and able to give consent varies enormously as well. For the UK it is 16, in some US states it is 17 and the UN defines a child as anyone under 18. It would seem to me that it would be better to offer protection up to at least 18 and that there may also be vulnerable people over that age.
Suziewoozie I know we have had our differences but I agree entirely with your post.
Vera Baird has done some amazing work with rape victims and how the law has treated them.

ticking the issue of the age of consent is in essence far more complex than you seem able to grasp. There are situations IN LAW in this country were sexual exploitation is recognised regardless of the woman being over 16 - for example if tge woman is trafficked, or a school pupil and her teacher. Also there are many professional relationships where the power imbalance is recognised and men ( or women when that happens) are struck off and are unable to practice such as doctor, psychologist etc. The sexual abuse/exploitation of girls and women takes many forms and age and their pubescent status is only one factor in all this.

Vera Baird QC is the victims commissioner for England and Wales and has urged Windsor to be more “forthcoming“ to help the survivors of Epstein paedophilia to find justice.

Baird said Windsor needs to be guided by sympathy for the victims and start assisting the FBI.

“It is a shame there isn’t something a little more forthcoming, .....that he showed that he appreciated What Epstein (his friend) was doing.“

Frankly imo if you entered Epstein’s houses you could fail to “appreciate” what he was doing. It was hung all over the walls.

Baird went on to say that...
“It is important or everyone involved in the case that the victims are the most important people and they need justice and merit empathy”

Iam your post says it all. That some women on here ( maybe mothers and grandmothers of women and girls) could use such tactics is utterly vomit inducing. Every time there is a thread where issues of the exploitation/abuse of females( in all its many forms) is discussed the same victim blaming / she asked for it/she knew what she was doing tired old misogynistic arguments are trotted out. I can’t help but wonder how fundamentally unhappy/discontented within their female skin are such women.

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I accept the concern about the use of the word paedophile to describe men who abuse post pubescent children. I've used it to describe the abuse of pre-pubsecent children, infants and babies.
The criticism of the use of the word to describe Epstein and Maxwell was, imo, intended to diminish the concerns about child sexual exploitation, trafficking and abuse.

These young girls were told that they would be employed to give Epstein a foot massage.

Epstein had it off to a fine art and with Maxwell’s assistance the girls were gradually drawn into acting as sex objects.

Every person interviewed by the police/FBI told the same story.

Some posters appear to have a very warped view about what is acceptable.

These children and young women although appearing sexually mature are still waiting for psychological maturation. Anyone who has had anything to do with the young adult will know how vulnerable they are and how easily controlled and manipulated, particularly those from difficult backgrounds.

Epstein or Maxwell trawled the poor streets of Florida, (anyone who has been there will be aware of the poverty in some areas,) and he fed off these young girls hopes and aspirations to better themselves. Epstein operated by promising them a better life with education, certificates etc. All these things would be theirs if they complied with the sexual requirements of Epstein and his friends like Andrew Windsor. They were groomed as surely as any other child you hear about.
These girls were offered to Epstein’s friends, almost as casually as you were offer someone a drink.

I suppose it is part of our culture that some people consider everything has a price and that somehow if girls are given gifts or treats then the sexual contact cannot be abuse. Imagine if we applied that same standard to other relationships, would we allow a man to mistreat his wife because he gave her money or expensive gifts afterwards? The fact is of course that the gifts and treats are part of the process of controlling the girls and steadily eroding their confidence so they become more amenable.

Trisher they're the women who thought those under age girls were sex workers ...not abused .I suppose being plied with alcohol and drugs is why they believed that .The very fact they were under age made it ABUSE

I can't help thinking about the things Jimmy Saville got up to and the girls who weren't believed or were silenced while he was alive. There are parallels here I believe. Powerful individuals exploiting vulnerable girls.