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What does 'Parliamentary Democracy' mean to you?

(46 Posts)
biba70 Wed 22-Jul-20 14:30:44

In view of the recent decision to disallow our MPs to represent us in Parliament - does 'Parrliamentary Democracy' still exist today? Discuss.

varian Sun 26-Jul-20 19:15:43

The trouble is that most people have their political opinions formed by the media, especially the national newspapers which are owned and directed by billionaires who certainly do not have the best interests of this country at heart.

Forty years ago we had laws which prevented too many important news outlets being in the same ownership, but when Rupert Murdoch offered to support Margaret Thatcher, she waived the rules so that he could own The Sun, The News of the World, The Times and The Sunday Times and have a large stake in BSkyB.

Rupert Murdoch is not a British citizen yer he has had huge influence over the political direction of the UK for the last forty years.

According to Farage, there would have been no brexit were it not for Rupert Murdoch.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kxw0

MaizieD Sun 26-Jul-20 15:06:57

We can but try to keep the record straight and to inform, growstuff.

The trouble is Maizie that most people haven't a clue how Parliament works and they don't care enough to find out.

But you're not allowed to tell them that they haven't a clue.. you get your posts deleted grin

It's heartening, though, that there are posters on here who are very, very worried...

growstuff Sun 26-Jul-20 14:34:24

The trouble is Maizie that most people haven't a clue how Parliament works and they don't care enough to find out. They might be influenced by stories of MPs' expenses, but some can't even name their own MP (so I'm told). They're more influenced by the tabloid snapshots of political leaders.

They're not bothered about the nuances of "democrcay". They're influenced by simple slogans and entrenched views. Many people were shocked by Cummings' behaviour driving to Durham and Barnard Castle, but most of them haven't a clue what his role is or the difference between him and a civil servant. They don't really care about his part in democracy or whether it's matter that he's currently deemed in contempt of Parliament.

Political "illiteracy" is quite sad.

MaizieD Sun 26-Jul-20 11:24:08

Very interesting thread, by a historian, on twitter which says a lot of what I said in my first post in this thread, and some more.. I think that understanding this is really important for democracy.

This is the bones of the thread, for the examples he gives see the thread on twitter or follow his link at the end.

According to the @Telegraph "Boris Johnson has speeded up plans to curb the judiciary". We must not be fooled by claims that this is about restoring "the sovereignty of Parliament". It's about the power of Number 10 to sideline Parliament - & all other checks on its power
The courts are to be punished for two key rulings: reversing the suspension of Parliament in 2019, & insisting that only Parlt could trigger Article 50. In neither case did the court rule on policy: instead, it restored the right of Parlt, rather than No. 10, to make decisions
Far from "supplanting Parliament", as ministers claimed, the judges in these cases were defending Parliament against an attempt to sweep it aside. What the courts were challenging was not the sovereignty of Parliament, but the right of Number 10 to shut Parliament down.
The prorogation crisis was only the most egregious example of a wider political project: an attempt to exclude Parliament from decision-making and to concentrate power in Number 10. That project has accelerated in the months since prorogation.
Parliamentary committees have been suspended, ignored or subjected to heavy-handed attempts to pack their membership and appoint their chairs. MPs who challenged No 10 have been expelled from the Conservative party, while Parliament itself has been rendered almost unworkable.
As @davidallengreen , @TomRHickman and others have pointed out, the government has consistently chosen to legislate during the Covid crisis without reference to Parliament, using emergency powers and Statutory Instruments to create new criminal offences by ministerial fiat.
Meanwhile, the Brexit process has relied heavily on "skeleton bills", which allow ministers to fill in the details of legislation later. A parliamentary report accused ministers of taking powers of "breathtaking scope", & "seeking powers for convenience rather than necessity".
We might ask: "why does this matter? The government won an election, why shouldn't it do what it wants?" The answer is not just that scrutiny produces better government. It's that concentrating all power in the hands of the largest party misunderstands the nature of democracy.

The Tories won 43% of the vote in 2019. That entitles them to the loudest voice in our democracy, but it does not entitle them to engorge absolute power, to lift themselves above the law or to shut out other voices - with their own democratic mandates - from decision-making.
Talk of a "winner-takes-all" system forgets that every MP has won an election: the only election, at a UK-level, in which their constituents can vote. Whether they're from the Greens or the UUP, every MP has a democratic mandate to share in lawmaking & the scrutiny of govt.
A government that demands the right to shut down Parliament; that legislates by decree; that tries to control parliamentary committees; & that punishes the courts for upholding the rights of Parliament, is undermining the democratic representation of millions of voters.
So next time you read that that "the Judiciary" is in "the PM's crosshairs", recognise just what a chilling headline that is. If you're a Conservative, ask how happy you would be to see these powers in the hands of an opposing party, who might use them for very different ends

Checks on govt are not an affront to democracy; they are essential to a democracy that speaks for all the people. If we value that model, the task of the next 4 yrs is to defend Parlt, the courts & the very principle of checks & balances from the attempt to sweep them aside
For the quotes in this thread, and for more on this theme, see my article here: qmul.ac.uk/mei/news-and-o…

twitter.com/redhistorian/status/1286999540122476544

paddyanne Sat 25-Jul-20 21:11:07

Ellanvannin the so called bedroom tax has been mitigated by the Scottish government eveyr year since it was introduced..its spending money that we need for other things on fixing Bojo's ideological punishments on people who need an extra room for carers or GC or for equipement for a medical condition.Of course it was widely approved by the tory grass roots as it was seen as keeping the poor in their place ,cutting benefits and giving tax incentives to those who REALLY deserve them, the already stinking rich .You really should move to Scotland we are the most left leaning Country in this DIS united kingdom of course that is the UNION which was a treaty of two nations ..an international treaty ....its NOT a Title deed to Scotland and we should be able to walk away when WE choose ,not wait for BOJO to give PERMISSSION....what we have is not so much a union as a hostage situation Democracy in the UK? Dont make me laugh !1

Dinahmo Sat 25-Jul-20 20:30:38

varian

Journalists are employed by newspaper proprietors and who are they?

Are they people who have the best interests of our country at heart or do they promote their own agenda to promote their own interests?

This question was certainly answered many times during the Brexit debates and those in the run up to the GE. Barclay Brothers, Richard Desmond, Harmsworth Family, Murdoch.
And the Graun which is owned by a trust.

growstuff Sat 25-Jul-20 18:34:13

biba70

could you please tell me how this answers the question in the OP, perhaps. Don't quite see the link, thanks.

It doesn't.

It might be helpful to discuss the meaning of democracy and not confuse it with free speech, etc.

growstuff Sat 25-Jul-20 18:32:01

EllanVannin

So where's all the rioting over the bedroom tax that many have to pay ? Isn't this an extra tax on top of what people are already paying for the same property ?
This is worse than the poll tax in that it affects those who live in council or housing association homes.

No, it isn't. Bedroom tax isn't a tax and affects only a minority of people, unlike "poll" tax.

Whitewavemark2 Sat 25-Jul-20 18:28:57

varian

Journalists are employed by newspaper proprietors and who are they?

Are they people who have the best interests of our country at heart or do they promote their own agenda to promote their own interests?

True, but if for instance the government decided to pass a law that said that Journalists must no longer publish information about say ongoing trade talks or who is funding political party, or indeed whistleblowers then imo democracy is compromised.

varian Sat 25-Jul-20 18:12:19

Journalists are employed by newspaper proprietors and who are they?

Are they people who have the best interests of our country at heart or do they promote their own agenda to promote their own interests?

Whitewavemark2 Sat 25-Jul-20 18:03:23

In a country where for example journalists are prevented from reporting on what they perceive as the national interest etc then democracy is diminished.

Whitewavemark2 Sat 25-Jul-20 18:01:25

I think democracy is also wider than that centred on Westminster.

It feeds into regional and local government and the devolved parliaments but I also thinks it is centred in the conversation that continuously takes place between a country’s citizens in the form of social media , education, journalism and freedom of speech.

biba70 Sat 25-Jul-20 17:19:06

could you please tell me how this answers the question in the OP, perhaps. Don't quite see the link, thanks.

EllanVannin Sat 25-Jul-20 16:52:45

So where's all the rioting over the bedroom tax that many have to pay ? Isn't this an extra tax on top of what people are already paying for the same property ?
This is worse than the poll tax in that it affects those who live in council or housing association homes.

biba70 Sat 25-Jul-20 16:22:53

when the NHS is sold down the river, and we are out of EU without a Deal, and with no deal with anyone unless we dance to their tune. In the EU, we had elected representatives, we sat at the top table, we had several unique exemptions... with No Deal- we will have no power and will be at the beck and call of anyone, like Trump - prepared to give us measly and dangerous crumbs.

MaizieD Sat 25-Jul-20 16:18:17

Then we have no redress when they renege on their promises.

Yeah. It's not much comfort when people say we can vote them out at the next election. Especially when it's 4 years away and heaven knows what chaos they'll cause in that time. Or how much of the democratic process they intend to destroy.

Blinko Sat 25-Jul-20 14:40:33

I'm afraid that Parliamentary Democracy means naff all except when an election is looming.

At an Election, we are bamboozled into believing they (of whichever party) will carry out their published manifesto, which is why they were voted into power.

Then we have no redress when they renege on their promises. The vote of the present incumbents against protecting the NHS is a case in point.

varian Wed 22-Jul-20 20:49:02

We live in a sham democracy where a minority of votes results in a majority of seats resulting in a "elective dictatorship".

An "elective dictatorship" is a phrase popularised by the former Lord Chancellor of the United Kingdom, Lord Hailsham, in a Richard Dimbleby Lecture at the BBC in 1976.

biba70 Wed 22-Jul-20 20:34:48

'Then the OP should have said what she meant' ...

I do believe it is better for a thread to be opened without too much narrow guidance, personally. WhitewaveMark2 is right- this is what I was talking about. The principle, so deeply anchored in our Parliamentary Democracy, that MPs should have a say in representing us- over MAJOR decisions and Trade Deals - like the NHS, which we were promised would NOT and NEVER be sold, and agriculture standards which will decimate the farmers many MPs represent.

What on earth is the point of a Parliamentary Democracy where Parliament has no say? If you say it does not matter- do remember that if this principle becomes the norm- it will be whichever Government has a majority- and I'd say it will be Labour in a coalition next time. Will Conservatives be happy then for Parliament and MPs to be bypassed in making the most important decisions for the country?

Drum1234 Wed 22-Jul-20 20:19:10

Ignoring the distraction...
It would seem that parliamentary democracy no longer exists for this particular issue and any constituency which has an opposition MP has no say at all in what will happen. This stifling of the debate means only one side of the argument will be allowed to be discussed. I can't see how this is good for the country as a whole, including those who back the government to the hilt. If the government continues to erode the principles of Parliament in this way, there will be no point to having an opposition and we will be living in a dictatorship.

growstuff Wed 22-Jul-20 20:14:32

I have been disenfranchised for years. I live in a seat, where the majority is rock solid and will never be overturned.

growstuff Wed 22-Jul-20 20:12:55

*I think that the widening of the suffrage makes it more difficult to satisfy the electorate as a whole because there are far more competing interests in play. After all, when the only interests represented in parliament were those of the aristocracy and the middle classes, whose interests very broadly coincided (money and power) it was easier to satisfy the electorate.

Once the 'working man' and all women were included there are obviously more radical conflicts of interest. People get very frustrated and disillusioned with 'democracy' if they constantly feel ignored and uncatered for. And disenfranchise themselves because of it. (But I don't think I really need to tell you that...)*

That's what I was wondering. Before universal adult suffrage, MPs were elected (and Parliament represented) a narrow range of interests. The mid nineteenth century changes meant that business had an interest, rather than just the landed gentry, but Parliament was still more like an academic debating chamber.

The original "democrats" of Ancient Greece weren't representative of the whole population either. Only about 30% of Athenians were eligible to vote (no females of course). It just meant that the leader had no automatic right to rule autocratically.

Illte Wed 22-Jul-20 20:08:08

I'm fairly new, Maizie though I have learned to avoid the obvious "have a go" threads. But the question made me stop and think even before I opened the thread. So I was hopeful.

It didn't have to be political did it? I mean the question remains regardless of political persuasion or who is in power.

Thanks for trying.

MaizieD Wed 22-Jul-20 20:01:05

Really not sure what your post has to do with what Parliamentary Democracy means to you', Grany hmm

MaizieD Wed 22-Jul-20 19:59:15

Illte

There. And I hoped it was going to be an intellectual, abstract sort of debate?

You really should know better!

I tried...