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A pivotal moment for the EU?

(58 Posts)
Urmstongran Fri 24-Jul-20 21:52:17

Well Remainers.

“Did you know what you voted for back in 2016?

Brexiteers will be all too familiar with that question. But what would Remain voters make of the big decisions taken in Brussels this past week?

Four long nights of talks saw EU leaders strike a deal on the bloc's next seven-year budget, worth just over one trillion pounds (€1.1 trillion).

They also agreed a scheme of €750 billion (£680 billion) in grants and loans to counter the impact of the pandemic across the 27-member bloc, the biggest joint borrowing scheme in the EU’s history.

MEPs put their summer holiday plans on hold to comb over the fine print yesterday, many of whom fumed that it didn’t go far enough.

European Council president Charles Michel said it was “a pivotal moment” for the EU, while Commission chief Ursula von der Leyen said it was “historic”.

Ex-Belgian prime minister Guy Verhofstadt, now an MEP, called it the biggest “leap forward” for the EU since the creation of the euro and the single market.

It is clear now that the ‘pesky’ Brits are no longer around, Eurocrats are daring to dream once more of deeper European integration.

Gone are the days when Eurosceptic-lite countries, such as the Netherlands, could hide behind the UK when trying to vote down policies they didn’t like.

Seasoned Brussels watchers might say this is old news. Yet the spectre of inevitably more Europe was dismissed as Faragist fantasy back in 2016.

EU leaders say these exceptional times call for exceptional measures. They believe that a series of EU taxes will help foot the bill.

But much of the blueprint to reboot Europe’s economy from the coronavirus pandemic bears an uncanny resemblance to von der Leyen’s own ‘manifesto’ published before she took office last year – and very little resemblance to the election pledges of the EU heads of state and government.

In fact, many of these ideas have been kicking around for years. Either in the bowels of the Berlaymont, the Commission’s headquarters, or in the policy papers of well-funded EU think tanks with links to Europe’s biggest political parties.

The wish list includes EU digital taxes, green taxes, and even a possible financial transaction tax – once branded by George Osborne as “a big tax on pensioners” in the pages of this very newspaper.

A "single rulebook" for corporate taxes is also on von der Leyen's agenda.

All this might send shivers up the spines of even the most ardent Remainers.

Just ask Tony Blair.

In his first two terms as prime minister, he regularly clashed with the then-Commission president Romano Prodi. The Italian wanted Britain to surrender its veto and grant the EU more tax-raising powers.

Fast forward two decades: the band line-up has changed, yet everyone is still singing very much from the same hymn sheet.

To their credit, Brussels realises that they have their work cut out to get voters on board.

A 2017 paper for the Commission, entitled ‘the Future of Europe’, said having the EU do more risks is “alienating parts of society which feel that the EU lacks legitimacy.”

Eurocrats are organising a conference of the same name that starts this year “to give Europeans a greater say on what the European Union does and how it works for them.”

Verhofstadt, a sworn federalist, is widely tipped to chair the event after having missed out on a top EU job last year.

“Even if you agree that Brexit was a complete gamble, it certainly looks like a pretty good bet now,” one conservative European Parliament aide told me after the new EU budget was agreed earlier this week.

Beleaguered Remain campaigners, take note. The EU you want to rejoin is likely to look quite different indeed in a few years’ time.

Is that what you voted for in 2016?”

Apologies for the C&P.
It’s behind a paywall in the DT.

Urmstongran Mon 27-Jul-20 20:26:51

I think most of your post is hyperbolic nonsense biba70 - a lot of supposition (for instance I do still think a deal will be struck as it’s in everyone’s interests.

You probably feel better for a good rant and getting all that off your chest. I can understand that.

However I’m still glad I voted to Leave. As did an awful lot of voters - just not so many on here (or they don’t like to get involved and who can blame them eh?).

I still honestly believe the U.K. will be relieved not to be part of the EU. Trouble is definitely brewing over there in Brussels. The euro isn’t going to hold up for much longer.

biba70 Mon 27-Jul-20 20:03:40

For the destruction of our farming industry/farmer- for the loss of good husbandry and food safety (just a porcine flu is making a return), dangerous additives and masses of antibiotics and no provenance ensuring we can't make a choice? Abour the borders to the UK, as in France being totally opened without infrastructure or checks anywhere? For hauliers to be stuck in customs for hours and days, and possible unable to work at all. For us to be outside international research, be it in medicines or industry, etc, outside Intelligence to fight against terrorism, outside supply chains and export markets, and therefore the loss of thousands and thousands of jobs?????The list is endless. If you voted for all of this - then I have now words for you, sorry. But YOU will have to carry the responsibility for it all, all of you who voted for this. 'Fooled' will be the least of your worries when the population wakes up to the reality. Clear.

biba70 Mon 27-Jul-20 19:56:47

It is very difficult to admit one has been fooled - I get that.

You voted to get out of EU jurisdiction - fair enough. Did you vote for No Deal? To become the puppets of Trump's USA and alienate all our neighbours. Did you know the Irish border would not be solved, did you know about huge price hikes, tarifs, shortage of drugs and huge hike of costs for such, for the sale of the NHS, and so much more? Did you really?

Urmstongran Mon 27-Jul-20 19:23:17

That’s a bit nasty varian.

varian Mon 27-Jul-20 19:10:08

Exactly. Point made.

Urmstongran Mon 27-Jul-20 18:54:16

Well I don’t feel I’ve been fooled. I voted to come out of the EU jurisdiction. I love Europe just not the autocratic EU which, as we’re finding out more about these days isn’t as open, transparent and democratic as they like to portray!

varian Mon 27-Jul-20 18:03:39

Many of the blinkered voted for brexit, then voted to "get brexit done" with little or no understanding of the implications.

I will never believe that all of the 17 million (out of a population of 67 million) who voted for this brexit disaster had any understanding of international trade treaties or basic economics.

They were fooled.

However, as we all know by now, it is much easier to fool people than it is to get them to admit they have been fooled.

MaizieD Sun 26-Jul-20 22:43:18

Sparkling

Goodness, the country voted overwhelmingly recently just so we could get Brexit done and yet those few with blinkers on do not recognise that.

I rather think that the blinkers belong to the people who think that 43% of the vote is 'overwhelming'.

Sparkling Sun 26-Jul-20 21:47:09

Goodness, the country voted overwhelmingly recently just so we could get Brexit done and yet those few with blinkers on do not recognise that.

biba70 Sun 26-Jul-20 13:18:27

Polling still looking good.
Starmer net approval +22, Johnson -8
In seats we lost since 2005: Starmer +13 Johnson +2
Towns Starmer +9 Johnson -6
65+ Starmer +11 Johnson +9
www.opinium.com/resource-center/public-opinion-on-coronavirus-23rd-july/

biba70 Sun 26-Jul-20 13:12:34

He is going down - and unfortunately taking us down with him. Borrowing much more money to destroy the country than (even) Labour would have to rebuild it. And the whole world knows it (I think he knows it too by now)

www.dw.com/en/opinion-boris-johnson-from-world-king-to-bumbling-failure/a-54312236

Have you seen the ratings recenty? Starmer right up there and Johnson down and down.

Dinahmo Sat 25-Jul-20 20:21:55

maddyone

Do the people of the EU look at the UK and say ‘no thanks’ ? We know what the leaders say, but do we know what the people say? I’m not sure we do, though am willing to be persuaded by concrete evidence.

The people we meet at the local bar every Friday think we're mad for leaving. They think Johnson is a joke. They think that we've never really understood the reason for the EU and that it is about more than just trade. They are all retired so of an age with most GNers. Like us, they are incomers to a rural area. They are reasonably knowledgeable about events in the UK and they feel sorry for us.

lemongrove Sat 25-Jul-20 19:59:48

EllanVannin

The sprouts are rebelling grin Brussels will make things as difficult as they possibly can.

Haha?
But wait a minute?does this mean no sprouts at Christmas, will they withhold shipments ??

maddyone Sat 25-Jul-20 19:50:16

Agree with varian on this thread too. There’s hopeful news from Oxford and Imperial College, London. Also China is trialling a hopeful looking vaccine. I believe 28 countries are actually in trials with a vaccine, and many more projects are ongoing. I think Oxford, Imperial College, and China are front runners at the moment, but also possibilities in America are in development. There’s also a breakthrough in treatment as mentioned by biba.
I don’t care how much money these scientists make, I’m just thankful that these people are working so hard to develop treatments and vaccines. If they make money along the way, good for them.

varian Sat 25-Jul-20 19:11:06

Good. Let's hope we can get a vaccine that works ASAP.

biba70 Sat 25-Jul-20 19:05:22

Pharmaceuticals industry
'Major' breakthrough in Covid-19 drug makes UK professors millionaires

Synairgen’s share price rises 540% on morning of news of successful drugs trial

maddyone Sat 25-Jul-20 18:26:48

Do the people of the EU look at the UK and say ‘no thanks’ ? We know what the leaders say, but do we know what the people say? I’m not sure we do, though am willing to be persuaded by concrete evidence.

biba70 Sat 25-Jul-20 18:25:28

Yes, indeed.

varian Sat 25-Jul-20 18:19:49

The EU has shown conclusively in its response to the global pandemic, that we are much better together than apart.

And perhaps as a consequence, support for EU membership has grown in all 27 EU countries - exactly the opposite of the brexit liars' claims that if we left there would be a domino effect.

The people in the other 27 EU nations have looked at the sad state that the UK is in and said "no thanks". They appreciate their EU membership more than ever.

NotSpaghetti Sat 25-Jul-20 16:34:54

Sorry Ellan, I'm not sure what you mean here?
Who are the sprouts and what are they rebelling about?

Why do you assume Brussels will make something or other difficult? What or why?

Sorry if this is stupid but I just don't understand.

EllanVannin Sat 25-Jul-20 16:11:58

The sprouts are rebelling grin Brussels will make things as difficult as they possibly can.

MaizieD Sat 25-Jul-20 16:03:29

A rather different take from the Guardian of course. No paywall so I'll just link to it.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/24/the-guardian-view-on-the-eu-budget-hitting-the-wrong-notes-in-hamilton

I thought this bit was interesting:

The European Union is a global heavyweight in trade and climate. But in political terms, it is puny. For all the Brexit conspiracy theories of a “United States of Europe”, the EU has no federal government. Brussels is not the continent’s capital, but home to its bureaucracy. The club’s power lies with member states that zealously guard their interests and scrupulously defend their sovereignty. They often recoil from shared burdens and a collective will.

The EU is not hiding plans of integration, it just has none of any note. Over the last three decades, the appetite for greater political and fiscal union has been shrinking, not growing.

NotSpaghetti Sat 25-Jul-20 15:09:09

MerylStreep - I take it she will try to make that more difficult.

That's what I think about it.

paddyanne Sat 25-Jul-20 14:18:49

Meryl streep not to worry England has CHINA building nuclear power stations..thats the same CHINA that they and America are shaking warlike fists at over Huawei !! Couldn't make it up ...sadly in Toryland you dont have to make up the ridiculous and the downright lies..they are there for all to see

Furret Sat 25-Jul-20 13:53:15

The Daily Telegraph.