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A pivotal moment for the EU?

(58 Posts)
Urmstongran Fri 24-Jul-20 21:52:17

Well Remainers.

“Did you know what you voted for back in 2016?

Brexiteers will be all too familiar with that question. But what would Remain voters make of the big decisions taken in Brussels this past week?

Four long nights of talks saw EU leaders strike a deal on the bloc's next seven-year budget, worth just over one trillion pounds (€1.1 trillion).

They also agreed a scheme of €750 billion (£680 billion) in grants and loans to counter the impact of the pandemic across the 27-member bloc, the biggest joint borrowing scheme in the EU’s history.

MEPs put their summer holiday plans on hold to comb over the fine print yesterday, many of whom fumed that it didn’t go far enough.

European Council president Charles Michel said it was “a pivotal moment” for the EU, while Commission chief Ursula von der Leyen said it was “historic”.

Ex-Belgian prime minister Guy Verhofstadt, now an MEP, called it the biggest “leap forward” for the EU since the creation of the euro and the single market.

It is clear now that the ‘pesky’ Brits are no longer around, Eurocrats are daring to dream once more of deeper European integration.

Gone are the days when Eurosceptic-lite countries, such as the Netherlands, could hide behind the UK when trying to vote down policies they didn’t like.

Seasoned Brussels watchers might say this is old news. Yet the spectre of inevitably more Europe was dismissed as Faragist fantasy back in 2016.

EU leaders say these exceptional times call for exceptional measures. They believe that a series of EU taxes will help foot the bill.

But much of the blueprint to reboot Europe’s economy from the coronavirus pandemic bears an uncanny resemblance to von der Leyen’s own ‘manifesto’ published before she took office last year – and very little resemblance to the election pledges of the EU heads of state and government.

In fact, many of these ideas have been kicking around for years. Either in the bowels of the Berlaymont, the Commission’s headquarters, or in the policy papers of well-funded EU think tanks with links to Europe’s biggest political parties.

The wish list includes EU digital taxes, green taxes, and even a possible financial transaction tax – once branded by George Osborne as “a big tax on pensioners” in the pages of this very newspaper.

A "single rulebook" for corporate taxes is also on von der Leyen's agenda.

All this might send shivers up the spines of even the most ardent Remainers.

Just ask Tony Blair.

In his first two terms as prime minister, he regularly clashed with the then-Commission president Romano Prodi. The Italian wanted Britain to surrender its veto and grant the EU more tax-raising powers.

Fast forward two decades: the band line-up has changed, yet everyone is still singing very much from the same hymn sheet.

To their credit, Brussels realises that they have their work cut out to get voters on board.

A 2017 paper for the Commission, entitled ‘the Future of Europe’, said having the EU do more risks is “alienating parts of society which feel that the EU lacks legitimacy.”

Eurocrats are organising a conference of the same name that starts this year “to give Europeans a greater say on what the European Union does and how it works for them.”

Verhofstadt, a sworn federalist, is widely tipped to chair the event after having missed out on a top EU job last year.

“Even if you agree that Brexit was a complete gamble, it certainly looks like a pretty good bet now,” one conservative European Parliament aide told me after the new EU budget was agreed earlier this week.

Beleaguered Remain campaigners, take note. The EU you want to rejoin is likely to look quite different indeed in a few years’ time.

Is that what you voted for in 2016?”

Apologies for the C&P.
It’s behind a paywall in the DT.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 30-Jul-20 14:31:21

Too embarrassed.

I would be mortified!

biba70 Thu 30-Jul-20 12:54:00

A triple whammy if you add climate change's effect on agriculture, fishing and a lot more.

The combination of all 3 will be disastrous for an isolated UK.

Strangely enough, Brexiters don't seem to come and argue this one. I do believe the reality is dawning - must be hard to know you actually voted for it.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 29-Jul-20 19:40:20

Double whammy to our economy. LSE report.

More insanity.

t.co/vBlDcV9kjN?amp=1

biba70 Tue 28-Jul-20 15:06:53

it seems that the Brexiters can't justify the destructions of our Parliamentary Democracy and the obvious manipulation of the Lords. Says a lot.

biba70 Tue 28-Jul-20 12:28:33

Brexiters insisted we had to return to our own Parliamentary Democracy- are now clapping Johnson and Tories for getting rid of it in the Commons- stopping our MPs from representing us. and instead of trimming down the Lords, as planned- filling it with Brexiters (aka bent and paid cronies)- you could not make this up- ever.

MaizieD Tue 28-Jul-20 08:46:36

If the EU supporters are so apparently ignorant of 'democracy' why aren't all those Brexiters who do know what it means out there on the 'democracy' thread explaining it to us? ?

Lucca Tue 28-Jul-20 08:40:30

Sussexborn

That’s the main problem with this section on GN, maddyone. If you don’t agree with the EU fanatics then, obviously, you are stupid, ill informed and ignorant. No such word as democracy in their vocabulary and no acceptance that others have every right to reach a different conclusion to them.

You always say this sort of thing. You get so huffy when people with a different viewpoint continue to maintain their stance !

Whitewavemark2 Tue 28-Jul-20 08:08:43

One really pivotal moment and something the U.K. has signally failed to do.

The EU, whilst we have been bickering over brexit has quietly grown its total trade with other countries by more than the trade they do with the U.K.

We are still at the bottom of the heap with no deals worth mentioning at all.m

Whitewavemark2 Tue 28-Jul-20 07:39:52

The only thing I have to console myself over this insanity is that we can rejoin.

Not with the same let outs but at least we will be part of a powerful economic union once again.

Whitewavemark2 Tue 28-Jul-20 07:38:04

MaizieD

Sussexborn

Why would anyone want to be part of such an evil organisation, Maisie?

I think you'll discover why next year...

Until then I'm storing up the popcorn...

? there will be millions of us joining you maize

Mind you when realisation dawns some of us will be throwing the bloody stuff.

MaizieD Tue 28-Jul-20 07:35:31

Sussexborn

Why would anyone want to be part of such an evil organisation, Maisie?

I think you'll discover why next year...

Until then I'm storing up the popcorn...

Sussexborn Tue 28-Jul-20 00:19:32

Maizie - autocorrect again!

Sussexborn Mon 27-Jul-20 23:52:54

Why would anyone want to be part of such an evil organisation, Maisie?

Sussexborn Mon 27-Jul-20 23:51:09

That’s the main problem with this section on GN, maddyone. If you don’t agree with the EU fanatics then, obviously, you are stupid, ill informed and ignorant. No such word as democracy in their vocabulary and no acceptance that others have every right to reach a different conclusion to them.

MaizieD Mon 27-Jul-20 22:14:40

I think most of your post is hyperbolic nonsense biba70 - a lot of supposition (for instance I do still think a deal will be struck as it’s in everyone’s interests.

Not really, Ug. Whether or no a deal is done there are things that will happen because we are a third country and will not get the same treatment as a member state.

Queues at the ports are inevitable with all the extra customs declarations to be checked by a very inexperienced workforce. In fact, it's doubtful if the 50,000 extra customs staff required will be anywhere near trained by then. It's apparently usually a two year training.

The government is anticipating huge delays at ports; it's already bought 20 acres in Kent for a lorry park and plans on buying more for other ports.

Permits to drive in Europe. We will get about 25% of the required permits according to the Road Haulage Association. There is also the question of goods vehicle drivers' qualifications as recognition of UK licences stops on 31st December.

These factors alone are likely to completely disrupt any 'just in time' distribution networks for manufacturers and cause shortages of foodstuffs.

I realise that you think this is all hyperbole, Ug, but then, you think that Johnson's word can be trusted... hmm

maddyone Mon 27-Jul-20 22:02:14

You can expect all you like, but no one is obliged to fulfill your expectations I’m afraid.

biba70 Mon 27-Jul-20 21:59:26

Votes have major consequences ... if your vote destroys the NHS, for instance - I'd expect a justification- and as said, certainly, responsibility and ownership.

maddyone Mon 27-Jul-20 21:54:58

No one has to justify their vote ever. We live in a democracy, and therefore do not have to justify a legitimate vote. I don’t think either leavers or remainers don’t ‘own’ their vote.

biba70 Mon 27-Jul-20 21:38:00

The OP is attempting to justify the Brexit vote- so it is perfectly valid to argue that it does not.

Don't justify it if you don't want- but owning it, and taking responsibility for the consequences - you will have no choice. It will be yours - come what may.

GrannyGravy13 Mon 27-Jul-20 21:02:10

I am also with you Urnstongran

I do not know why I should have to justify my vote to others

flopen Mon 27-Jul-20 20:53:32

What is also ground-breaking in the original post is that the EU, through these measures, has become a tax-raising institution.

biba70 Mon 27-Jul-20 20:52:55

Things are currently very very very different to the promises made 4 years ago- so it all has to be said again.

MerylStreep Mon 27-Jul-20 20:50:14

Urmstongran
I'm with you, but just can't be arsed to repeat myself. It was all said 4 years ago.

flopen Mon 27-Jul-20 20:50:10

Substantially not subsequently

flopen Mon 27-Jul-20 20:49:32

I think it's going to be interesting to see how things go with the eu.
Are the 'frugal' northern countries going to want to prop up the south indefinitely? The eu covid rescue fund has been subsequently reduced on the insistence of the Dutch.
I'm not necessarily criticising the southern counties like Italy - including them in the Euro has been disastrous for them.
How long is the EU going to support Hungary and Poland when they flought the EU on judicial issues, or , because of their importance as a buffer against Russia, are the EU going to turn a blind eye.
And who is going to fill the funding gap left by Brexit?
Interesting times...