Does feminism mean the same now as it did in the 60's and 70's?

In the last decade, the road transport industry has been at times up to sixty thousand heavy goods vehicle (HGV) drivers short in Britain.

Despite heavy advertising and training far less than ten percent of HGV drivers in Britain are women at the present time?????????

It’s a massive question and women are still trying to find their true place in society.
It was perhaps clearer then.
I think I was primed to be a feminist when my all girls school trained me in flower arranging, dressmaking, and principles of accounts. Instead of maths to help your husbands business it was implied everything to be a useful middle class wife. Extraordinary, this was in Surrey in the turn of 50’s / 60s. The lure of this selective school by myself and friends was that it offered a pre-nursing course to one of the top five hospitals in London. What absolute tosh.
I realised when I was about 15 that nursing wasn’t what I wanted - I wanted to be in a white coat of some sort not a pretty cap and apron.
I got a job at the medical research council as a trainee technician. This involved me in studying for A level zoology at a technical college, as it was subject in which a lot of dissection was required not available for schools. And I was the only girl. And all the boys were going to be doctors and came from local grammar schools and private schools. They weren’t particularly bright, some were more swatty than me and I wish I had been a harder worker. But no one had ever said to me I could be a doctor. That got me thinking.

Galaxy

Grandad if you are struggling with this issue, dh works for a commercial firm, they have women at all levels of senior management, the roles require extensive travel, overnight stays, they also provide consultancy services so perhaps they could offer advise on how it's done. There would be a charge obviously

Galaxy we have no problems in regard to employees travelling and remaining away from home under normal circumstances.

However, due to the skills shortage in our profession, we would have been able to grow the company much larger over the years had the persons with the qualifications we required been available during those years, either men or women.

However, that is another debate. ?

My house backs on to a cemetery. Digging a grave is no longer back breaking work, as they have a mini digger. One of the grave diggers is female. Why wouldn't there be female grave diggers?

It's so subtle the messages we receive. I listened to a radio news account a while back detailing a nurse who was a serial killer. My very first thought was how unusual it was to hear about a female serial killer. The broadcaster moved on to name the perpetrator. It was a man. But my first thought when I heard the word nurse was =female. I have spent the last ten years involved in feminism yet that was my first reaction.

I don't disbelieve you, GagaJo

And I too would have been furious.

I was just relating my experience in a bank. Maybe it was due to the fact we had a female bank manager

We all have our own back story.

Women are becoming doctors but many choose not to progress once they are qualified. There are very few women surgeons and consultants. It is changing but very slowly.

Ooopsminty, the head caretaker at my last UK school was a woman. Not a 'site manager' in a suit. Proper work clothes, getting stuff done. She was very proactive.

Also, I can GUARANTEE you, I was denied promotion at Lloyds because of my sex. The same bank that at my interview asked me if being a mum would interfere with my work OR if I intended to have any more children. This was in 1990.

Exactly, Galaxy. I have a VERY capable friend. Travels all over the UK in her work for a freight company (not a driver, a business manager), despite being a single parent AND having battled cancer three times. Only reason I know she's working away at the moment, is because she's posted photographs of her lovely hotel.

As someone involved in a childcare situation for a mother who has worked away through two children who are now school age I know how fragile and delicate the balance can be in anyone's domestic situation when children are involved. It only takes a small accident, illness or some other incident to upset everything. That said all employers have a responsibility to offer and arrange child friendly hours for their employees where young children are involved. The fact is that most don't let their employees know this.
Perhaps the next time the glass ceiling is brought up the chamber of trade could discuss how many of them have introduced this for men and women employees.

Oh stop being shocked, Iam64

How do you cope with life if you're so easily shocked?

29% of judges are women. Surely it should be more? The wonderful Lady Hale certainly thinks so.

Maybe you'd like to see more women in prison?

Only 5% at the moment

How can you explain that away?

And no I don't remember girls aspiring to be nurses and boys doctors.

Three of my classmates went on to be doctors. All girls school.

I didn't see oppression everywhere I looked

Several incidents from the late 60s/early 70s that just wouldn’t happen today, have either appalled my dds or made them hoot with laughter.

One, a job I applied for produced a reply saying, ‘Oops, sorry, but this position isn’t open to women since it involves travelling and even (NB that even!) driving a car!

Two, a job I did get, cabin crew with an airline, had only very recently been open to any married women (if you’d got married while employed you’d had to leave) because your husband wouldn’t like you being away - who would cook his dinners and iron his shirts? (No mention of ahem randy First Officers sticking notes under your hotel room door, saying, ‘My door is open, come and kiss me goodnight.’)

Three, once I did get married and informed my bank of my change of name, they said they ‘needed’ to know my husband’s name and his occupation.
Stuff that! I closed the current a/c and went joint with dh - as it’s been ever since.

Mr. S. had a vasectomy in the mid 80's Gagajo and I had to go with him to see the surgeon and sign the consent form; things may have changed though.

Several years ago when in Albania our guide, a retired teacher told us of an Albanian saying; men are the head of the family but women are the neck. They support the head and dictate in which direction the head moves.

I was fortunate in that I didn't go back to work until our youngest started full time education and when I did worked part time. It annoys me if women are denigrated for choosing to be stay at home mums, as if they're letting the 'sisterhood' down for their choice.

I want women to be equal to men in all areas and surely, the whole point of feminism/equality is that if a woman is willing and able to do a job, she shouldn't be denied that opportunity by virtue of her gender.

It's not that long ago in scheme of things, the 1960's I think, that the law concerning divorce saw enormous changes in no small part due to Lord Denning.

Women's rights have come a long way but there's still a long way to go IMO. Earlier this year during a discussion with DS, he didn't believe that in the UK women doctors with the same qualifications as their male colleagues, holding the same position and working the same hours, are paid less.

He googled it to prove me wrong, and proved me right.

Advice even. Perhaps I should speak to them about advice on spelling

Grandad if you are struggling with this issue, dh works for a commercial firm, they have women at all levels of senior management, the roles require extensive travel, overnight stays, they also provide consultancy services so perhaps they could offer advise on how it's done. There would be a charge obviously

The idea that women are aspiring to men's jobs if they become pilots scientists barristers or judges is staggering. This is 2020 not 1920. Some of the best barristers and judges I know are women. Same goes for doctors, remember when children were told boys could be doctors and girls could be nurses.
Yes some women do manual work. Our local FE college has girls and young women doing apprenticeships in many of the jobs you identify as 'male' with women not "demanding" to do them.
We have an army of women in the traditional caring roles but men are beginning to join them. The world is changing for the better in many ways.
I'm shocked that any woman could say "its great to support women but in some areas we don't want to be equal to men"

I believe in a equality. The includes men and women chasing their career path

Oopsminty we had a lovely woman road sweeper here (when there were such things) she loved her job, did it very well, and always chatted to people who said hello.
I think some women would much rather do any of those jobs than work in a care home or other menial job.

trisher in regard to your post @10:31 today, there is a good mixture of both sexes on our local chamber of trade and the meetings are normally well attended.

In regard to the "glass ceiling" discussion, it was generally felt that any number of reasons can contribute to a higher percentage of women than men not wishing to undertake job roles that involve travel and large amounts of time away from home.

The domestic situation has to be a main consideration with any person thinking of travelling and spending large amounts of time away from home as a major part of their job role.

I worked in a bank in the late 70s. Probably 50/50 male/female

The manager was female.

All paid the same. Treated the same.

I was encouraged to move 'higher up' but didn't want to.

I never felt that I was inferior to men

We hear a lot about women doing men's jobs and of course that's great. We need more women pilots, scientists, barristers, judges

However we can't get away from the fact that we don't hear women demanding to be refuse collectors, road labourers, brickies, grave diggers, builders. I could go on. And I'm sure there are some women who do these jobs but they're few and far between.

So it's great to support women but in some areas we don't want to be equal to men

Grandad, when your secretary referenced a "changing domestic situation" did you support her by enquiring what it was? If it was divorce/separation for example. While I was at university (as a mature student) I went through a divorce AND a nervous breakdown. I was supported through this by the very sympathetic head of course, with assistance of the reallocation of my student loans, cancellation of that years payments and the transfer of my course to a location closer to home. The right support at the right time made it possible for me to continue. I had similar support while undergoing lengthy cancer treatment. An employer that recognised that temporarily, I would not be able to fulfill all of the requirements of my role. Good organisations with good support.

Yes, Galaxy. My ex was a dinosaur when it came to domestic work. I got sick of it. His new wife is happy to do all the housework BUT is not prepared to work. He's not happy that she doesn't financially contribute. And she is now vulnerable, as he has had cancer twice and may not make it to retirement age. He has some pension that she will get but not a lot.

Well that's alright then isn't it Grandad1943 she has obviously learned the level she is permitted to aspire to. Have you offered her the training at a later date?

My DD who is a graphic designer, and very highly qualified with a Masters degree, in her first job found she was being aid lower rates than less qualified men (about 25 years ago). She talked to the boss and got a raise, but it still didn't match what the men were getting. Apparently they needed it for mortgages, etc. Eventually she left the company, took a lot of their clients and set up on her own. She's never looked back!

GagaJo in regard to your post @10:28 today, the extensive and expensive training that was offered to the Legal Secretary within our own company would be undertaken with the view that on completion and obtaining the required qualifications she would then be required to travel extensively in that new job role.

That travel she decided she could not undertake just prior to the commencement of the training. She is still working for our company and remains excellent in the role as one of our Legal Secretaries.

That's interesting gagajo, I do wonder about divorce rates and the link between women saying 'I am not doing this anymore'. I havent seen any info on the reasons why people divorce, I suppose it's a very difficult issue to unpick.

Grandad1943 do you suppose that the reason some women don't feel they want to travel is because the men in their life don't accept their share of the child minding, or do so begrudgingly?
Did the chamber of trade consider any solutions they could offer to the problem, or to help with this? Or did they all (I wonder if they were all men) just shrug their shoulders and accept the situation?
Did you offer to allow your Legal Secretary to undertake the training at a later date when her domestic problem was resolved?
I don't see a reluctance of female employees to travel or be away from their families overnight by the way, I see women still being expected to shoulder the main responsibility for family and their career suffering because of this.

Grandad1943

Galaxy

No it was my imagination from your description and the comments you have made about women and promotion, it made me smile.

Then perhaps Galaxy a better understanding of how life, and especially commercial life, really operates would be of great benefit to you. ?

Mansplaining 101 - 'perhaps Galaxy a better understanding of how life, and especially commercial life, really operates'.