Does feminism mean the same now as it did in the 60's and 70's?

Galaxy

I seem to be struggling through grandad.

Yes "struggling through" I find I can agree with. ?

Grandad1943 Sat 01-Aug-20 08:45:19

The situation is somewhat different now, but my company like many find that women often do not take up all the training and promotions offered to them especially if that promotion involves travel and time away from home.

There is nothing employers can do in such situations.

My experience with Lloyds Bank was in the 1980s. I had a child at home and was very ambitious. I was EASILY better than a couple of the boys gang that were promoted. At work earlier. More accurate. Output greater. Promotions were for men because they would support families.

2011. Exactly the same experience in a school. Three women and one man (very young) applied for an internal promotion. All three of us women had much more experience, two of us were vastly better qualified. Man got the job.

In my last British school, there was a mother of FOUR undertaking teacher training. Much time away from home. Unavailable to her family for long evenings and weekends.

I have always been very very willing to undertake training (continuing professional development). The courses I've been on have always been a mix of the sexes.

It does beg the question as to WHY women in your company didn't want to undertake training Grandad? Perhaps the problem wasn't entirely domestic.

Galaxy Sat 01-Aug-20 08:41:55
I agree with the fact that adults can clean up after themselves but in practice that is not what happens, studies still show that it falls to women. Now that may be changing but it is very slow. Again it's not an individual discussion its societal.

I left my first husband in part because he was an adult child (obviously there were also other reasons) who expected me to do ALL the housework. I worked full-time (my choice BUT he also expected my equal financial contribution).

My partner now was the same in both of his marriages. Wife was the domestic. When his second wife left him, he was forced to get to grips with how to keep a house. He recounts it now as a trial by fire.

I agree that an hours work in any occupation is of equal value. Childcare or medical. Business or domestic. It's a Marxist proposition that makes sense to me. Why is my labour worth more than someone doing manual labour? Why is my labour worth less than someone in big business?

While domestic work remains unwaged OR very lowly paid, it will continue to be regarded as women's work. But I for one would never have put myself in the position of being vulnerable to divorce or the death of my partner. We live in a capitalist, patriarchal system. Until equality is total, unfortunately women either play by those rules or risk ending up with very little.

I seem to be struggling through grandad.

Galaxy

No it was my imagination from your description and the comments you have made about women and promotion, it made me smile.

Then perhaps Galaxy a better understanding of how life, and especially commercial life, really operates would be of great benefit to you. ?

No it was my imagination from your description and the comments you have made about women and promotion, it made me smile.

Galaxy

Sorry but the thought of the puzzled expressions at the chamber of trade is making me laugh. What can this mean? It's so tricky.

Galaxy, who said anything about "puzzled expressions at the chamber of trade".

It was an agenda item that no one was "puzzled" in regard too. It may be that it puzzles you but not anyone at that meeting.

Sorry but the thought of the puzzled expressions at the chamber of trade is making me laugh. What can this mean? It's so tricky.

I trained and worked for many years as a nurse, never a profession that attracted big salaries, however I did note in the 60’s and early ‘70’s whilst the vast majority of student and trained nurses were women, the vast majority of senior posts were held by men. I switched careers when I was forty and nearly fell of my chair when I was asked at interview if I had finished my family and did I think we would ever have equality in employment. I gathered myself and replied to effect that I didn’t think women would ever have equality with men as long as we were the ones that became pregnant. The all male panel looked aghast. I got the job though!

In regard to the reluctance of a percentage of women to accept promotion in their employment that involves travel, that we discussed at our local chamber of trade meeting just prior to lockdown following the release of the "glass ceiling report"

There are several owners of businesses attend those meetings who require employees to travel extensively throughout the UK and often remain away from home overnight. In that discussion, several members of that body advised on the difficulty of women employees who although well qualified and having proven abilities for the promotion job roles on offer did not wish to engage in such work due to having to travel.

In the case of our own company, we had such an occurrence early this year when one of our Legal Secretaries expressed a wish to be trained up so as to join one of the Assignment Team's "out on the road". However, as the training was about to begin she advised us that she would be unable to undertake any time away from home due to her "changing domestic situation"

Of course, men often do not wish to spend time travelling away from home but they seem to be a much lower percentage of any workforce.

Ladymuck .... don’t you think you ARE equal to a man then!? If you have a daughter.... how does your attitude sit with her I wonder. Seriously question...I really would like to know.

When I got my first promotion into a managerial role, I was offered it at a pay cut (allegedly shorter hours). I asked the Union for help and was told that I was taking a man's job and I should be thankful for it at any salary... Over the 33 years in my career in that company, not to mention my final salary pension, that attitude has cost me hundreds of thousands of pounds.

I was raised by older parents. My mum used to say things like "that girl is on the shelf, she's missed the boat". This was about someone who hadn't found a man yet. She was desperate to see me married and having children. I married at 20 and luckily it worked out. I worked in a Surveyors office and remember a girl being sent home to change as she'd come to work in a trouser suit. All of us were subjected to leering from the men as we wore mini skirts.

Yes feminism has changed. In the 60s and 70s the message was that women could have it all. The message now is that women have the freedom to decide what they want to do with their lives, provided they accept that it is still within a world ultimately controlled and designed by men.
I recommend Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez

I love you a little bit Iam64

I wonder what a feminist analysis would look like in considering why Grandad's company can "do nothing" about why those pesky women don't take up the opportunities for promotion, travel and time away from home.

Galaxy

It's not an individual discussion grandad it's an analysis of society and its structures.

It is about what was the real situation in many homes and families in times past.

The situation is somewhat different now, but my company like many find that women often do not take up all the training and promotions offered to them especially if that promotion involves travel and time away from home.

There is nothing employers can do in such situations.

Grandad as I have said I am discussing the issue on a societal level not what time you as an individual get up.

I agree with the fact that adults can clean up after themselves but in practice that is not what happens, studies still show that it falls to women. Now that may be changing but it is very slow. Again it's not an individual discussion its societal. Are you saying all those women make that choice in isolation. It's interesting if that's the case. I think looking after children in the early years is a very important job. I think people choose to do that in very different ways and I think all those ways should be supported.

Galaxy

But is it an equal contribution though. So working women on the whole do much more housework and childcare than men. Those statistics have shifted but not much.
I have said that I think SAHM are taking a risk but I think there are also questions about the value we place on unpaid work. If we are talking about equality then working women should be paid more than men as generally they are doing more of the unpaid labour, but nobody argues for that

If women choose to take on more chores than men that is up to them. I don’t do more than my husband and never did. Nor do most of my friends.

Why would we? We all contributed to our households equally, so expected equal participation. Adults can clean up after themselves regardless of gender.

Sometimes it was different but it was equal, which is what those of us arguing for equality are saying. If you want equality you have to contribute equally.

It goes beyond individual households, as you say, Galaxy. It’s about who pays for healthcare, roads, education, pensions - all the things that everyone benefits from and are paid for out of tax and NI. How can those who contribute nothing towards any of these things think that cleaning their own house is equivalent?

Galaxy

But is it an equal contribution though. So working women on the whole do much more housework and childcare than men. Those statistics have shifted but not much.
I have said that I think SAHM are taking a risk but I think there are also questions about the value we place on unpaid work. If we are talking about equality then working women should be paid more than men as generally they are doing more of the unpaid labour, but nobody argues for that

If it is jointly decided that one partner should remain at home to fully look after the children while the other works outside that home to maintain the income that is required that is a close equal sharing partnership in the eyes of very many.

Commencing work in the very early hours of the morning I was always home when our children arrived back from school. I would then have a number of hours with them prior to bedtime for our children and also me.

In the above, I would manage on five hours of sleep per night which in later years affected my health.

The above we considered as me and my wife BOTH sharing in running the home and bringing up our children.

To state any other is total cr*p

It's not an individual discussion grandad it's an analysis of society and its structures.

But is it an equal contribution though. So working women on the whole do much more housework and childcare than men. Those statistics have shifted but not much.
I have said that I think SAHM are taking a risk but I think there are also questions about the value we place on unpaid work. If we are talking about equality then working women should be paid more than men as generally they are doing more of the unpaid labour, but nobody argues for that

Sparkling

To me being a feminist meant having an equal ground with men, not belittling them or scoring cheap points, which is how I think it's become. I believe in ability not quotas to make a point, that is lowering the aims of being a feminist, so it has changed over the years, not for the better.

There have to be quotas though, because otherwise what you get is the continuation of white men at the top. I was told not to expect promotion at Lloyds bank because it was reserved for men with families. That wasn't by ability.

The patriarchal system was designed to allow white men all the power. It was always about maintaining that system. To disrupt it, it is necessary to force discriminatory organisations to hire women and other ethnic groups.

Galaxy

Again you are placing the blame in women. Men need to step up and take an equal share.

Men do take an equal share. My wife remained at home when our three children were young looking after them and our home.

I during those years would commence working at 1:00 or 2:00am in the morning, work a ten or twelve hour shift often carrying that out six days per week in a very heavy manual truck driving job.

Was that not "doing my share".

Galaxy

Again you are placing the blame in women. Men need to step up and take an equal share.

I’m not blaming women for anything. I am saying that equality means equal contribution - in the workplace and in the home.

If men are living with a working woman, it’s not unreasonable to expect them to do their share. Few younger people would even question this.

I am not saying that anything ‘should’ or shouldn’t’ happen incidentally- just that equality requires equal participation. The fact that someone is female should not, IMO mean that she should expect others to pay for her to stay at home. If she wants to do so, it’s up to her, but her there is no reason why her husband can’t be expected to provide for her old age just as he did when she was capable of providing for herself.