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Priti Patel threatens the French with the Navy

(81 Posts)
biba70 Sat 08-Aug-20 12:09:23

re increased number of immigrants crossing the Channel.

Sense?

Oopsminty Sun 09-Aug-20 17:31:27

MaizieD

Oopsminty

Here's the link

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/sep/21/claim-asylum-uk-legal-position

Thanks, Oopsminty

But I think I'll go with the more recent interpretation by a Professor of Law

Fine by me!

I thought you'd have known about Corinna Ferguson.

www.oldsquare.co.uk/news-and-media/news/old-square-chambers-welcomes-corinna-ferguson

www.judiciary.uk/announcements/appointment-of-a-salaried-employment-judge-of-the-employment-tribunals-england-and-wales-ferguson/

Lilypops Sun 09-Aug-20 17:20:52

Growstuff. I never said they are going to Aberdeen. I said are they being tested. Before they set foot on British soil , who knows where they end up , they can still spread the virus wherever they go in U.K.

growstuff Sun 09-Aug-20 16:00:01

Maybe the UK should take a similar number of refugees per capita as Lebanon has. Currently there at least a million refugees in Lebanon. The population of the UK is about ten times the population of Lebanon, so that's about 10 million.

MaizieD Sun 09-Aug-20 15:50:15

Oopsminty

Here's the link

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/sep/21/claim-asylum-uk-legal-position

Thanks, Oopsminty

But I think I'll go with the more recent interpretation by a Professor of Law

Whitewavemark2 Sun 09-Aug-20 15:34:42

Brexit soon. Perhaps the refugees would be happy to fill all the spare jobs for a time until they find their feet?

Sprouts need picking, hospital beds need making, elderly need caring etc all efficiently done by a EU person at the moment.

Oopsminty Sun 09-Aug-20 15:09:49

Here's the link

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/sep/21/claim-asylum-uk-legal-position

biba70 Sun 09-Aug-20 15:05:43

lemongrove, I can assure you Maltese, Sicilians and Greeks, do NOT.

MaizieD Sun 09-Aug-20 14:38:47

Oopsminty

biba70

It does seem 'strange' that the country in Europe at greatest distance from points of entry into Europe- insists migrants should stay in the first country of entry - lol. Funny, that ;)

It's International Law, biba70

*There has, however, been a longstanding "first country of asylum" principle in international law by which countries are expected to take refugees fleeing from persecution in a neighbouring state. This principle has developed so that, in practice, an asylum seeker who had the opportunity to claim asylum in another country is liable to be returned there in order for his or her claim to be determined.*

You don't say where your quote comes from, Oopsminty, but this is from a blog published yesterday by Steve Peers; Professor of EU Law, Human Rights Law & World Trade Law, Uni of Essex.

It seems that the 'principle' isn't exactly clear cut.

Don’t refugees have to apply in the first ‘safe country’ they enter – otherwise they are not genuine?

While it is often strongly asserted that 'international law requires refugees to apply for asylum in the first safe country they enter', in fact the position is rather vaguer than that. The Refugee Convention doesn’t contain any express rule to that effect in the rules on the definition of refugee, or on the cessation (loss) or exclusion from being a refugee, as set out in Articles 1.A to 1.F of that Convention.

However, there are some indirect suggestions in the Convention that the number of countries which a refugee has crossed through might be relevant. Article 31 of the Convention, which deals with ‘illegal’ entry (as discussed above), includes the condition that a refugee had to be 'coming directly' from the country which they had to flee, in order to avoid penalties for illegal entry. While the 'non-refoulement' rule in Article 33 of the Convention prevents States removing refugees to an unsafe State, it does not prevent refugees from being removed to a safe State.

Furthermore, as noted already, some of benefits which the Convention gives to refugees (such as welfare and access to employment) are reserved for those who are lawfully resident or present in the territory; and the Convention does not require States to give refugees a lawful status under national immigration law. In particular, Article 32 of the Convention prevents expulsions of refugees in general (whether to an unsafe or a safe country, subject to exceptions), but its protection applies to ‘a refugee lawfully in their territory’. The obvious implication is that refugees not lawfully in the territory are protected only against expulsion to unsafe states, under Article 33. In fact, in its judgment on the validity of the EU law on relocation of asylum seekers (discussed here), the CJEU explicitly took the view (paras 338 to 344 of the judgment) that the Refugee Convention did not prevent removing an asylum seeker to another safe country, at least within the context of the EU’s relocation scheme.

So overall, the Refugee Convention gives States a degree of flexibility to insist upon a 'safe third country' requirement, but there is no absolute rule that refugees must always apply in a ‘safe’ third country. If the Convention had intended to impose a firm rule in that regard, it would surely have said so expressly, defined the conditions for such a rule to apply, and provided for obligations for the first ‘safe’ country to readmit the refugee – for without such obligations the rule would not easily be workable. Moreover, the preamble to the Convention refers to the heavy burden which the grant of asylum may place upon some countries, and the need for international cooperation to avoid refugees becoming a source of tension between States. Taken as a whole, then, the drafters of the Convention recognized that a strict safe third country rule could impose undue burdens on countries neighbouring a conflict in some cases, but left it to States to work out the ^details of how to address such burdens when they occur.

eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2020/08/updated-qs-and-as-on-legal-issues-of.html

The blog is longer and looks at the various elements of international law affecting refugees/migrants/asylum seekers.

lemongrove Sun 09-Aug-20 14:23:16

I think all countries in the EU think that biba

Oopsminty Sun 09-Aug-20 14:22:34

biba70

It does seem 'strange' that the country in Europe at greatest distance from points of entry into Europe- insists migrants should stay in the first country of entry - lol. Funny, that ;)

It's International Law, biba70

There has, however, been a longstanding "first country of asylum" principle in international law by which countries are expected to take refugees fleeing from persecution in a neighbouring state. This principle has developed so that, in practice, an asylum seeker who had the opportunity to claim asylum in another country is liable to be returned there in order for his or her claim to be determined.

biba70 Sun 09-Aug-20 14:15:53

It does seem 'strange' that the country in Europe at greatest distance from points of entry into Europe- insists migrants should stay in the first country of entry - lol. Funny, that ;)

Barmeyoldbat Sun 09-Aug-20 11:54:15

Lilypops the number of refugees arriving in dingoes is nothing to the hordes of traveller arriving back from holiday at the airports. Don't blame the refugees for any spikes, blame the government for not getting a grip on the situation and people who just for one year can't give-up holidays or going away in this country and crowding out beaches and popular spots.

biba70 Sun 09-Aug-20 11:18:43

Growstuff asks 'what would you do'?'

and my answer is, if you want to ask others to help control your borders and share information and intelligence on illegal immigrants- and also on criminals and terrorists - you work closely with them in cooperation, as allies- rather than flounce and stamp your feet. Same for vaccines, PPE, medicines, isotopes, industrial supply chains, all research and tons more.

A small isolated country separated from water is going to have massive difficulties without full alliance and cooperation from neighbours, in millions of ways. Simple.

growstuff Sun 09-Aug-20 10:29:06

Lilypops

Growstuff. It’s not as you say ludicrous. , I am not blaming the illegal immigrants on the spikes in Manchester , Aberdeen or Leicester , I am just pointing out that Britain is having a very hard time containing the virus with new spikes arising , so , surely boat loads of immigrants coming in can’t all be tested before setting foot on British soil , bearing in mind that they have already come through France which today have declared new lockdowns , Belgium has quarantine laws and France declaring a rise in Covid cases , Ludicrous !!! No

Yes, it is ludicrous. Absolutely.

How many immigrants do you reckon made their way to Aberdeen?

Whitewavemark2 Sun 09-Aug-20 09:10:02

growstuff

Calendargirl

rather than making a few dinghies headline news

But it’s getting to be rather more than a few dinghies unfortunately.

So what would you do?

I agree it's becoming an increasingly important issue, but it still pales into insignificance compared with the government's behaviour on Covid. It's a distraction.

Agree

Lilypops Sun 09-Aug-20 09:06:20

Growstuff. It’s not as you say ludicrous. , I am not blaming the illegal immigrants on the spikes in Manchester , Aberdeen or Leicester , I am just pointing out that Britain is having a very hard time containing the virus with new spikes arising , so , surely boat loads of immigrants coming in can’t all be tested before setting foot on British soil , bearing in mind that they have already come through France which today have declared new lockdowns , Belgium has quarantine laws and France declaring a rise in Covid cases , Ludicrous !!! No

growstuff Sun 09-Aug-20 07:29:21

Currently the UK could send the people back to France under the Dublin III Regulation. As of 1 January 2021, the UK will cease to be part of the regulation and they'll be our problem - and ours alone. Unless we torpedo the boats, which would be against international law, the government needs to come up with some strategy.

growstuff Sun 09-Aug-20 07:24:16

Calendargirl

^rather than making a few dinghies headline news^

But it’s getting to be rather more than a few dinghies unfortunately.

So what would you do?

I agree it's becoming an increasingly important issue, but it still pales into insignificance compared with the government's behaviour on Covid. It's a distraction.

Calendargirl Sun 09-Aug-20 07:19:07

rather than making a few dinghies headline news

But it’s getting to be rather more than a few dinghies unfortunately.

growstuff Sun 09-Aug-20 06:55:15

vegansrock

Ok Brexit fans- you want to take back control - now you want the French to help? It’s a joke right?
Next it’ll be barbed wire and a wall along all the beaches in Kent.
Any more suggestions of how we can solve this on our own?

You appear to be requesting solutions. Good luck with that! hmm

vegansrock Sun 09-Aug-20 06:23:05

Ok Brexit fans- you want to take back control - now you want the French to help? It’s a joke right?
Next it’ll be barbed wire and a wall along all the beaches in Kent.
Any more suggestions of how we can solve this on our own?

growstuff Sun 09-Aug-20 01:28:30

Blaming people from boats for spikes in Manchester, Aberdeen, Leicester or on fruit farms and warehouses is ludicrous.

growstuff Sun 09-Aug-20 01:26:15

Lilypops Those who are intercepted when they land will almost certainly be tested. In the pictures I've seen, they're all wearing masks, presumably given to them by Border Force.

JenniferEccles Methinks you do protest too much. Nobody on this thread has said anything about unlimited immigration. How do you know that the people from the boats aren't very highly qualified?

You seem a little confused about the UK's obligations under international treaties.

How do you suggest the UK gets to grips with boat landings? Bringing in the navy is a lot of hot air and Patel has been told it is. She's just trying to match the obnoxious Farage.

She is part of a government which has caused thousands of unnecessary deaths. They all need to get their priorities right rather than making a few dinghies headline news.

Lilypops Sat 08-Aug-20 22:44:23

Well said BarmeyOldBat, but my fear is are the refugees likely to bring in more infection from Covid. They won’t have been tested will they , If they are comingGrom France then there is a very good chance infection will rise her in the UK,
We are already experiencing a new spike in parts of the Uk ,

JenniferEccles Sat 08-Aug-20 22:40:32

Those of you defending the right for all and sundry to come here, just what are you saying?

Just how many from all over the world do you suggest we should be prepared to accommodate, educate, allow access to an already stretched NHS?

Given the chance, how many from even just Africa and the Middle East would like to come here?

It’s a ridiculous idea that we are able to cope with many many millions, which is what we are talking about.

Despite the talk about how much land there might be here which is not built on, we ARE an overcrowded island.

Any migrants which we do permit to come here should be those with the skills and qualifications we need.

Why can’t we properly get to grips with this like Australia has?