Is morality something you expect of others?

trisher, all in the electorate were very well aware of the low morals of the leader of the Conservative Party prior to the last general election. However, that electorate still voted into office the conservative party with the largest mandate of any government in nearly forty years.

The above I accept as a being an affiliate member of the Labour Party and broader movement since 1965. Boris Johnson and his government will, in all probability now govern until 2025 and that fact we must all live with because that is democracy.

If a question requires to be asked it should be, "where is Kier Stamer been hiding throughout this crisis,". He did not show up in the Cummings crisis and it has been a "no show" as the schools reopening debate has got underway.

The invisible man. ?

This government has just awarded teachers a pay rise above the police and anyone else.
Schools are well enough funded, but when did you hear any schools or hospitals or police or any public service say they are doing fine?It’s something they just never ever do.
Most schools do a good job of managing their budgets and some really don’t.They may do better with more cash injected
( who wouldn’t?) but that doesn’t mean they can’t manage.
The government doesn’t have any money....it comes from us.
(Cue indignant posts and armchair economists posting a lecture.)
Am sick of all the complaining and whingeing that goes on day after day about life in the UK.

Lemongrove if we are returning to the original post, how does the claim of a "moral duty" now sit alongside a government which has steadily underfunded and cut resources which were meant to provide the very thing we are now apparently all concerned about - i.e. high standards of education for all children? As middle-class schools plug gaps by tapping parents for cash what is a school in a deprived area to do? The children who suffer most when TAs are dismissed to stay within budget are often the poorest and least able children. Apparently where money is concerned morals don't enter into it.

MaizieD

^ you would have to ask why some posters get so bad tempered that they won’t allow for a difference of opinion.^

But it's not a 'difference of opinion', it's a difference of expert knowledge v. opinion.

Or is this thread a rehash of 'we've had enough of experts'?

I believe the above statement "expert knowledge v opinion" states it all when it comes to the Education Establishment.

In the view of very many within that establishment it would seem all outside are mere mortals and "know nothing". They in their total ignorance should not be commenting on Education matters in any way no matter what their long experiences may be in the wider world. ????

MaizieD the armchair experts on GN again?
Back to the topic and enough of teachers!

Perhaps it would be a good idea now to get back to the subject of the OP? I agree with others who say you can call on others to behave in a moral way, no matter your extra marital affairs/ divorce.If BJ had said it was a moral duty for us all to stay within our marriages ( no matter how bad they are) and never to have an affair....then that would be different!

^ you would have to ask why some posters get so bad tempered that they won’t allow for a difference of opinion.^

But it's not a 'difference of opinion', it's a difference of expert knowledge v. opinion.

Or is this thread a rehash of 'we've had enough of experts'?

lemongrove the straight forward truth and honesty of statement can be annoying to some people and no more needs to be said than that. ?

Elegran

Grandad1943 has already offered his invaluable and sensitive advice to a school near him. The offer wasn't taken up. The school he offered to help sounds as though it had communication problems between the head and the person that he contacted on a weekend morning with his offer, as I think they were unaware of the offer until they were awakened by the phone call, so perhaps they were less than gracious in their reply. Their apparent ingratitude does seem to have soured his opinion of all schools.

Grandad1943's posts on the subject of the faults of teachers individually and of everyone involved in teaching are triggers for a lot of anger and bad temper on these threads. If he had not already been an established poster, I might suspect him of being one of those people who invade social media to insult and abuse with the purpose of causing trouble.

I hope it does not drive a wedge between posters.

I certainly don’t think that it’s Grandad1943’s posts that are the trigger for a lot of anger and bad temper, but if they were, you would have to ask why some posters get so bad tempered that they won’t allow for a difference of opinion.
I think the rest of your post....after those words is unworthy of you Elegran and am surprised.
Sometimes I disagree with the comments of Grandad 1943 and sometimes I agree with him, but he tries not to be personal to other posters and has the courage of his convictions.

westendgirl, in regard to post @19:46 today, you ask why I do not put myself forward as a school governor.

In the above, I still work essentially full time in our own business, and in that offering safety support to other businesses. Those businesses do not have the advantage of state funding which guarantees all in education their employment survival with the exception of private schools of course.

, I'm sure you would gain a lot from being a governor, Why not give it a go. It is time consuming , demanding and often eye opening,but very rewarding.You could have a lot to offer.
Please though read the posts which are giving a true picture of life in the state system. They are not excuses and are written by people who have plenty of experience.
Lucky Girl you are so on top of the situation .It's a shame that some cannot accept it.
Wonder what the posts will be when the exam results are out !!

Luckygirl

It is also worth remembering that a business faced with these challenges can borrow money; schools cannot do so in the same way.

Very many businesses caught up in this crisis have had no income whatsoever for many weeks and therefore could not afford to borrow money for their Covid problems.

Use what resources you have both human and material has had to be the solution to their restart operations or "go under".

I've not "lost the debate" Grandad, because I wasn't "debating" with you. You have stated somewhere else something on the lines that you enjoy posting against teachers. That is believable! You keep posting from a position of immoveable rigidity without even considering what posters just as clever, committed and imaginative as you have to say, and wondering whether they might have a legitimate view of the situation.

You say "As has been stated, what is required is for the teaching profession to fully get back into the Schools, bring forward safe learning regimes for each site and then work the problems as they come about Why do you think heads, deputy heads, heads of departmens, subject heads, admin staff, IT staff, caretakers, cleaners, Uncle Tom Cobley and all have been meeting to discuss all those problems if not to get fully back to full-time learning, and bring forward safe teaching regimes? Work out problems as they come about - yes, but they also want to have as few problems as possible to have to sort out on the run. Do you really think they are so stupid and/or arrogant they refuse to compare what other professions are doing? So selfish they don't want a fulltime return to the work they entered with such high ideals?
What kind of school did you go to if you believe that? Did you have children at a school with teachers like those you describe?

Grandad1943 has already offered his invaluable and sensitive advice to a school near him. The offer wasn't taken up. The school he offered to help sounds as though it had communication problems between the head and the person that he contacted on a weekend morning with his offer, as I think they were unaware of the offer until they were awakened by the phone call, so perhaps they were less than gracious in their reply. Their apparent ingratitude does seem to have soured his opinion of all schools.

Grandad1943's posts on the subject of the faults of teachers individually and of everyone involved in teaching are triggers for a lot of anger and bad temper on these threads. If he had not already been an established poster, I might suspect him of being one of those people who invade social media to insult and abuse with the purpose of causing trouble.

I hope it does not drive a wedge between posters.

It is also worth remembering that a business faced with these challenges can borrow money; schools cannot do so in the same way.

Just because school leaders and teachers are identifying potential problems/obstacles does not represent negative thinking; they are doing what all good business managers do: thinking ahead and planning for different eventualities. They are only interpreted as negative by those who have an axe to grind in relation to teachers.

And several people have flagged up the very real problem of the absence of real concrete government support to help schools realise their ambitions to get pupils safely back to school, in the context of already inadequate budgets. They are right to do so. In a situation where teachers and parents are providing basic learning materials for the pupils out of their own pockets, serious support is needed to make the new provisions viable. Teachers want to make it all work - as witnessed by the positive comments on the news by heads of schools in Scotland that have gone back today.

What a lot of preaching and hot air Grandad1943. Pity there isn't any substance there.
while in reality many within that profession wish only to stay within its now five month old "shutdown comfort zone
Firstly there has been no five month shut down and secondly why on earth do you think people go into teaching? They want to pass knowledge onto children. They care about those children.
Do the education establishment really believe that employers in all other sectors in Britain have had limitless financing to solve their Covid problems, or untold amounts of space to bring about social distancing for their employees, of course they have not.
I wish you would explain what you mean by the educational establishment I would define it as the Department of Education, the Academy Trusts, the LEAs and any other bodies involved in the administration of schools but I think you mean something different.
As far as funding goes if you can give evidence of any other organisations which have increased capacity, reduced staffing, maintained standards and actually in many cases improved them whilst funding remained the same (in fact falling per head) as it was 10 years ago) I'd like to see it.
Many employers have introduced social distancing by limiting the numbers of employees returning to work, an option you aren't offering schools.
The teaching profession requires to learn from other sectors in what they have carried out to get their operations up and running again.
As many have already said offer your help and advice to a school, join a governing body, become a volunteer. Then explain how they don't want your help.
Finally I wouldn't dream of saying what the Nation wants and I don't think you should either. You are entitled to believe as you do, you are not entitled to assume everyone is the same

Ditto lemongrove ??

Hear hear Grandad 1943 ??

Elegran in regard to your post @11:10 today, when a forum member reports to throwing personal comments at myself or any other forum member it is always sure sigh that they feel they lost a debate and have no real argument left to offer.

Therefore I will not enter the standard you resorted too, but to take up that you state that the teaching profession accepts such measures as rota learning, off-site learning etc. However as can be witnessed in this thread and the many others that have centred on the closure of the schools, that so-called acceptance of the above is very frequently followed by a series of obstacles stating why it will not work.

The classrooms or overall size of the school is too small, children may incur Covid-19 in the school and then infect their families at home, of-site learning will mean teachers will spend all their time travelling between learning sites are many of reasons given for why things cannot happen. The foregoing is the reason many perceive the teaching profession as just "paying lip service" to solutions brought forward while in reality many within that profession wish only to stay within its now five month old "shutdown comfort zone".

Do the education establishment really believe that employers in all other sectors in Britain have had limitless financing to solve their Covid problems, or untold amounts of space to bring about social distancing for their employees, of course they have not. What those employers have done is to establish a risk-assessed safety regime for each workplace and then commence a phased return of the staff, and work the problems as they come about.

The teaching profession requires to learn from other sectors in what they have carried out to get their operations up and running again. But of course, everyone outside of the education establishment "know nothing" according to many within that establishment. They are mere mortals and should not comment on any matter within education.

As has been stated, what is required is for the teaching profession to fully get back into the Schools, bring forward safe learning regimes for each site and then work the problems as they come about.

After five months of closure, this nation should expect nothing less for its children

These returning in the Scottish Borders (in my link) are a week earlier than they would normally go back.

gillybob

But Scottish schools always break up and return on different dates to English schools don’t they ? So they ate not being used as Guinea Pigs as suggested on the “face mask” thread .

I wasn't being serious.

Well said Elegran. I do wonder how many don't read the posts . It looks as if it must be quite a lot.
According to the Times researchers, working on the study for PHE about children returning , are unhappy with the way ministers have used the findings, which have not been fully analysed.
About turn again ?

But Scottish schools always break up and return on different dates to English schools don’t they ? So they ate not being used as Guinea Pigs as suggested on the “face mask” thread .

The first Scottish schools start back today.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53722299