Is morality something you expect of others?

Bluecat, absolutely splendid post.

Lemongrove I expect to be able to trust my M.P.and my P.M.
To say it is naive to do so makes me wonder what this country has come down to.

The man’s a fuckwit (pardon my French) and proven total liar. I wont be listening to any of his utterances, he makes my blood boil. It used to be there was some integrity with MPs and they had the decency to resign when caught doing what they shouldn’t. This shower couldn’t give a toss what they get caught doing or what decent people think of them. I can’t understand how some can keep defending them.
Emperor’s new clothes syndrome.

It’s just a word, nothing to obsess about.Happier with the word duty? BJ has had a colourful life as regards wives/ girlfriends ( something the French take in their stride!) but so what? That doesn’t mean he can’t say what he thinks is a moral obligation for society to do.
Who really expects politicians and a PM to be squeaky clean in their personal life ( they will be disappointed if they do) and it’s a naive attitude.

Dinahmo

Ellianne

Who says Boris Johnson was an excellent mayor of LondonEllianne?
As a Londoner that is my opinion.

I suspect that you are in a minority, but that probably depends upon which part you live in.

Since Londoners voted him in twice as Mayor, then presumably they did think he did a good job.

The trouble with urging people to act in a moral way is that we all have different concepts of morality. I am not greatly interested in other people's sexual morality, so I don't really care if Jeremy Corbyn had an affair or Boris Johnson has innumerable kids by different women. It does make the latter look rather insincere when he tries to seize the moral high ground over children's welfare but insincerity has never bothered Johnson very much.

I do think, however, that it is hypocritical for this government to lecture us on moral duty. They have been proven to be utterly corrupt, rewarding their cronies/donors with titles and contracts. Millions of pounds of public money disappearing into the pockets of Tory supporters, often for goods never received. Seats in the House of Lords for voting the right way. To me, that is immoral behaviour. To Boris, presumably, it is moral to reward someone who gave the Conservative Party a nice fat donation, by making them a Lord. Gratitude is a virtue, after all.

So maybe morality is just a matter of opinion. To me, it seems shabby to talk about our moral duty to children when you have never cared about them before. A third of all children in the UK live below the poverty line. Does that thought keep the Prime Minister awake at night? Austerity has decimated children's services and kept benefits low and difficult to access. Many people have no guaranteed income, thanks to zero hours contracts. Millions struggle on low wages whilst rents have soared. As a result, there are children in this country, the sixth richest country in the world, who are scavenging in bins for food.

There has been a 41% real terms cut in capital spending on schools since 2010. There are schools with buckets on the floor to catch the rain. There are teachers paying out of their own wages, not only for pens and paper but for things like food or clothing for their pupils. Isn't it the government's moral duty to improve the welfare of these children? I think it is. Other people, with different concepts of morality, will disagree.

Is it parents' moral duty to send their children back to school? Or is it their moral duty to keep them out of an environment where they may become ill? Is it immoral to stop them mixing with their peers? Or is it immoral to create a situation where the virus may flourish, leading to a surge in deaths?

Who knows? Well, I am pretty sure it isn't Boris, who wants children back at school so that their parents can go back to work. This is about something more important than morality. This is about profits.

It’s the opinion of many people who don’t call him Boris and regard him as some sort of cuddly friend.

MaizieD that's just your opinion and not the opinion of many

Luckygirl

Interesting interview with Welsh education minister on TV. He talked of the goal of getting children back to school, but recognised the need to take it steadily, to get some children back initially and see how the systems might be changed or improved and then aim to get all children back by the end of September.

Now there is the voice of common sense. If only we had a leader who did not feel the need to talk in soundbites and make swashbuckling statements. The voice of thoughtful reason would get everyone on board and make it clear that the government is thinking in practical terms, and listening - listening!

We have a woman, Kirsty Williams, who is Education Minister in Wales.
Perhaps it was Mark Drakeford, Fuirst Minister.

My DGC have already received information by letter about their return to school, it will be staggered but obviously much work is being done in "the holidays" to enable a safe return.

Callistemon they aren't asking for step by step instructions they are saying that in some cases stepping straight up to 100% attendance in September may not be feasible and there should be other options available. Schools vary so much setting one goal for all is rather like saying to all football teams you will all provide the same facilities and accommodate as many supporters as Premier League clubs, which is of course impossible. As it is they will open but for how long is debatable. Wouldn't it be better to have a system in place which was sustainable and robust than one which just admits children, exposes them to risks and shuts down when any infection happens?

I can understand a contempt of Boris Johnson and his lack of morals. However, some posters are allowing that to colour their judgement on this important issue.

No they're not. They just think that caution should be well and truly exercised.

Israel opened up their schools; they're now experiencing a spike in cases which can be traced back to schools.

I'd ask people to have a look at this thread.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1292760173233213445.html

chatterbox2

I see the Boris haters are out in force again --- A stinking sewer of immorality is not a very nice thing to call anybody.

It's not a very nice thing to be, either, chatterbox. Unfortunately, that's our PM for you...

Luckygirl maybe you were listening to Mark Drakeford, Wales Firsr Minister, (the Education Minister is Kirsty Williams) if so, you would have heard the words careful and cautious used quite frequently*.

I see the Boris haters are out in force again --- A stinking sewer of immorality is not a very nice thing to call anybody.

I can understand a contempt of Boris Johnson and his lack of morals. However, some posters are allowing that to colour their judgement on this important issue.

We have a duty to the future generations and I believe most teachers do understand that and are keen to get back to work under safe conditions. Do schools really need it spelled out in step by step instructions by the government about what is safe and what is not? I don't think they do.

The teaching unions, of course, have a duty of care to their members but does that extend to the pupils?

Rosina have you been living on the moon? Just google Boris and his children. He has 4 by his second wife, and one illegitimate child he had to be taken to court to acknowledge, there are also allegations that he paid for abortions for his mistress. They haven't uttered unkind words. They have taken legal action.

Callistemon

maddyone

When BJ spoke of moral duty and ‘we’ I understood it to mean we as a society have a moral duty to get our children back into school, so I tend to think that the personal morals of BJ, or anyone else to be irrelevant.

That is exactly what I was saying way back in the thread but you have put it so much better, maddyone.

That's as maybe, but a great many people actively resent

a) being told their 'moral duty' by a man who has no concept of what a 'moral duty' is

and

b) the implication that by not rushing to open up schools they are somehow deficient in morals and failing as dutiful citizens. Which is very insulting...

Johnson was a dreadful mayor of London - cut police, fire service, and lied about it, spent afternoons at that pole dancers flat when he was supposed to be working, got his cronies to cover up for him. Wasted millions of taxpayers money on several useless vanity projects. He wouldn’t know moral duty if it slapped him in the face.

That's a fairly low bar to be honest.

Boris Johnson undoubtedly knows how many children he has; as a wealthy man he is also capable of providing for his offspring. He refuses to discuss his private life. Good for him - it is private. Significantly the only people who carp and criticise are those who speculate. Evidently his 'exes', whoever and however many they may be, have collectively not uttered an unkind word about him. I don't expect to see his new family in 'Hello' magazine - and for that if nothing else he has my admiration.

maddyone

When BJ spoke of moral duty and ‘we’ I understood it to mean we as a society have a moral duty to get our children back into school, so I tend to think that the personal morals of BJ, or anyone else to be irrelevant.

That is exactly what I was saying way back in the thread but you have put it so much better, maddyone.

My younger sister is a headteacher, two nieces and an in law. Hard left, card carrying bunch, two of whom are very active within their union and don’t want to reopen schools purely based on the risk to their own safety.
My sons are parents of school age children from various areas of the UK and are all disgusted at the lack of input from teachers throughout lockdown.
So I base my opinions on my own experience.
I have long been aware of the vast number of teachers on gransnet and have kept my counsel.
Previous poster talking about the criticism of teachers as bullying sums up the current wimpy attitude of teachers.

When BJ spoke of moral duty and ‘we’ I understood it to mean we as a society have a moral duty to get our children back into school, so I tend to think that the personal morals of BJ, or anyone else to be irrelevant.

I was brought up in the Anglican faith but have not been a believer since my late teens. However, I can still remember the 10 Commandments and Johnson has broken at least 2 of them. I've always thought that most people lived their lives by the ideas of the 10Cs even if they are not believers but it would appear from many of the comments above that they don't.

Johnson's comments about the natin's moral duty are just another example of him saying one thing, possibly with his fingers crossed behind his back. That man appears not to have a moral compass and yet people are still standing up for him.

I am not a teacher but I am distressed to see the bullying of teachers on this thread. Especially those of you who have written in so reasonably here again and again explaining in detail the difficulties schools are facing in practice at this difficult time and not getting much recognition of or discussion of the points you raise. I am sure most if not all of you work hard in a difficult job for moderate pay and go the extra mile again and again for your pupils without the resources you need. It is not possible to slack off in a classroom full of thirty or more young children or teenagers. It must be so hard to do this job and have people here treat you as if you are villains. Shame on them. I also feel compassion for the young people and recognise the point about the most disadvantaged children suffering the most with schools closed. What private schools can and cannot do is beyond the point really. Most of our children are not in such schools. I feel governments for some time have cut funding for education to the bone and this is not in the interests of the majority of ordinary people in Britain. So I think in claiming the moral high ground, the PM is acting cynically. But it seems to work with many people. How crucifying teachers will help anyone who have children or grandchildren themselves in the state school sector is beyond me.

I would imagine teachers have carried out risk assessment and come to the conclusion that it isn’t possible to make schools safe. Then again we must listen to the PM because his handling of the pandemic, thus far, has been exemplary.....(?)