Is morality something you expect of others?

Trisher: Anything for a cheap swipe at Boris Johnson? Rather pathetic.

lemon No one on this thread has said schools should stay closed either temporarily or permanently, only that they should open safely, protecting pupils and staff. That is the really "moral" way to do it, but the fact is more flexibility will be needed and more money would certainly help. It seems unlikely this government will supply either and so we lurch towards a disorganised opening where risks will just be ignored and schools may close more quickly than they opened. It's the usual standard of organisation we have come to expect from this government, which has already cost lives and may well cost more.

The "other side of the argument" has been understood. The "know it alls" know how important it is that pupils return to school. They also know that there are issues which need to be addressed and shrugging shoulders and pretending they don't exist won't work.

I hadn't spotted any posters on this thread who want schools to stay closed for a long time, so I haven't a clue what you're on about.

Should anybody wish to discuss managing a supermarket, being a nurse or driving a forklift, I'm sure I'd be interested but I'm afraid I wouldn't have anything to contribute.

I do not think anyone here is saying that they would "prefer schools to stay closed for a long time." I have not seen that anywhere. It is a distortion/extrapolation of posts from those who are trying to inject some realism into the task ahead. I do not think the goal is in dispute.

The know all attitudes of a few ( thankfully) posters are off putting for new posters to want to comment ,and tedious for those who have tried to put the other side of the argument.
So, no point really in commenting further, it will tail off after becoming an echo chamber for those who prefer schools to
Stay closed for a long long time because of course, they are the only ones who have any understanding of the situation ( in their eyes.)

wow!

Ellianne

^I can find suggestions about how this could be managed but none saying new ideas are not welcome.^
I think describing comments as ridiculous might come very close to a poster feeling their ideas are unwelcome, trisher.

Not unwelcome, just ridiculous.

Well this thread has certainly attracted a lot of comments ! Boris is dishonest in both his private and public roles, I wouldn’t trust him with a thing. An expert at telling people what they want to hear, with no sincerity whatsoever.

lemongrove

Of course schools will have to try and mitigate the risks, everything about this virus tells us it will be here for a long time but we have to continue at least trying to get life back to a sort of normality, especially when it comes to the children.
Nobody knows if there will be a surge in the virus numbers if all schools are back, but we do know how badly both children of all ages and parents too, will suffer being stuck at home, with for some, little or no education.
It has to be attempted.

What's an acceptable cost?

No lemongrove I don't claim to be the font of all knowledge on teaching or schools. I know very little about the organisation of primary schools, despite having had children go through them.

However, I do know more than a little about the logistics of secondary schools. In a former life I was a middle manager in a large comprehensive school and was responsible for organising things like timetabling, rooming, staffing, cover for absent staff, etc. It was my job, so I can see issues which even some in schools couldn't see.

I wouldn't dream of telling anybody how to organise any other workplace, so I do take exception when somebody persists in telling me how magical solutions could be found, when I know very well what's possible and what the risks are.

I've already given some suggestions and said what I think will happen. I'm still in touch with various senior staff working in secondary schools and I read what others, such as the DfE, unions, scientists, etc are writing.

I could be wrong. Maybe the government really will try and bluff it out. A lot could happen in the next three weeks.

My children are not done sort of experiment, especially considering how poorly this country has done in the management of the pandemic. I would be delighted for my child to return to school in New Zealand for example.

Of course schools will have to try and mitigate the risks, everything about this virus tells us it will be here for a long time but we have to continue at least trying to get life back to a sort of normality, especially when it comes to the children.
Nobody knows if there will be a surge in the virus numbers if all schools are back, but we do know how badly both children of all ages and parents too, will suffer being stuck at home, with for some, little or no education.
It has to be attempted.

I can find suggestions about how this could be managed but none saying new ideas are not welcome.
I think describing comments as ridiculous might come very close to a poster feeling their ideas are unwelcome, trisher.

lemongrove

Fortunately Galaxy most parents in the UK are agreeing with it, but it’s a free country to have our opinions differ.

Source please? Most parents most definitely do not seem to be agreeing - not the parents in local Facebook groups or on many other social media groups.

Not only is it not in the plan, but it has been categorically rejected, despite the request by Ann Longfield, the Children's Commissioner.

I don't think the government can be criticised for wanting to send any children back to school, but in the case of secondary pupils in particular it needs to look realistically at the risks and mitigate them.

I have a hunch it does know how risky it would be and knows damned well it won't happen, but it can't be seen to be at fault for its rubbish test and trace system, so it's looking to blame the public - anybody, just so long as it's not them.

Gavin Williamson's interview on R4 this morning was excrutiating. I honestly don't know how anybody can lie so blatantly.

Fortunately Galaxy most parents in the UK are agreeing with it, but it’s a free country to have our opinions differ.

Nothing is stopping you having your say, but as a parent I am also free to ignore it and say I dont agree with it.

Your first paragraph is correct Luckygirl. None of us here are completely "in the know", the bigger picture is enormous. All I know is that if the government is happy for schools to reopen, I am reassured. Teachers will do their best.
My son works for the MoD, I haven't a clue what he does, but I am reassured that the decisions taken there are similar in terms of protecting our nation.
Theres no time for any more delay, the situation may be fragile but let's try, and if it doesn't work be quick thinking and flexible enough to change.

Grandad1943

growstuff, just look at your own posts in this thread, nothing but negativity. For many of us, that sums up the teaching profession attitude throughout this crisis.

We can only thank the powers that be that the food industry, transport, and the utility companies did not adopt that same attitude, for the state the country would be in now is unthinkable should that have been the case.

Well said Grandad1943
So you were/are a teacher growstuff.....that doesn’t make you the font of all knowledge with every aspect of education.
My DH was a teacher and many in the family are teachers but they accept and agree that many schools have massively let down children with regards to their education and are still dragging their feet when it comes to returning in September.
Of course many teachers are raring to get back too, it’s a mixed response.
Please allow others on this thread to have their say without saying they know nothing about the teaching profession.

There has been a lot of criticism of the government in this pandemic for ignoring, or being selective, about scientific evidence, for example not locking down sooner, when there was clear indications that they should.

Now there is evidence from paediatric studies showing that children, especially young ones, although they do catch COVID-19 don’t readily spread it. I don’t think therefore the government can be criticised for wanting to send young children back when there is low risk BUT teenagers have apparently the same ability to spread as adults.

I think to be safer test and track needs to be more efficient than it is at present, and should be a consideration for regular testing in secondary schools for them to operate confidently. This doesn’t seem to be in the plan at present.

Grandad1943 All fresh thinking is shouted down Please could you indicate where on this thread that has happened. I can find suggestions about how this could be managed but none saying new ideas are not welcome.
I was considering the difficulties my GCs school will have, even just the children leaving and arriving. Usually the parents and carers congregate in the two yards. That can't happen because of social distancing. So the staff will need to get over 600 children into the school through 3 (or perhaps 4 if they use the office entrance) doors. How long that will take, what you do about latecomers they will now be working out. But it won't be easy and someone won't like the agreed arrangement.

Well said Luckygirl.

Trisher, you are talking about his chequered family life, perhaps this time he has it right. How many of us have married or had relationships more than once? He could be a brilliant father, we don’t know, I don’t judge until I know all the facts.

The word 'moral' applies to all decisions and interactions, not just how one conducts ones sex life. If he was an efficient, principled and effective PM the less than admirable private life wouldn't be a problem. As it is, he displays a contempt for moral behaviour in everything he does. Neither the man or his words are worthy of any respect.

Elegran - interesting analogy.

There is nothing wrong with people who are ignorant of the education system and how it works putting forward their views. What would make more sense though is for them to listen to those who are in the know when they reassure them that schools really are doing the best they can; but with one arm tied behind their back because of lack of funding to truly make the children safe.

Before I became a school governor I really did not know what goes on inside the system - viewing it from the outside as a parent or grandparent, it all seems so very simple, when in fact it is hedged round with very complex government-dictated systems that have to be adhered to, particularly in the area of safeguarding.

I have been shocked by the amount of work that teachers have to do - far far above what is reasonable - but all the teachers I have met do it with a good grace because they really really care about the children. I take my hat off to them, because I am aware of what they are really doing.

I have 7 GC, going to different schools around the country - they have been supplied with work throughout the closure; it has been monitored and reviewed and all necessary support has been forthcoming. I know this because I have been involved in it with them over zoom.

It is disappointing to learn that some schools have not been as diligent.

My school has been excellent , could not have been more thorough, my son returned in June/July (its all blurred into one!). Even with a thorough risk assessment, maps and video walk through of the school, it took a number of weeks before all parents in the year group felt confident enough to return. They came back at their own pace supported by the school. Goodness knows what the take up rate would have been if the school had suggested some of the plans on this thread.