on both sides of the pond- the extreme left is scuppering their own cause

You know, there really is no harm in criticising ones own party leader, or holding them to account. I have never thought any leader was perfect and I have always valued a ‘broad church’ in the Labour Party. Unfortunately different party leaders at different times have fought against that, or their MPs have refused to accept it.

What I would like to see is an end to rudeness and nastiness on this forum, but sadly I feel that is less likely than complete consensus in the Labour Party. Some people simply cannot help themselves, which is unfortunate really, and an embarrassment amongst mature people.

Grandad

You said this on :Sun 16-Aug-20 20:44:05

The abolition of the anti-trade union legislation brought in over the last forty years of Tory governments

I would say (and I said it on Sunday) that this would be a big turnoff for prospective voters. The rest of your programme could appeal, but this won't.

Today, (Tue 18-Aug-20 14:18:00), you are saying this:

Repeal of at least some sectors of the fifteen anti-trade union bills brought in under Tory governments since 1980.

Now that is not quite the same thing. Have you forgotten what you said on Sunday or have you changed your stance?

Not that I think it would make much difference. The demonisation of the Unions was thorough and long lasting. It is not a policy that appeals much beyond the far left...

All that many of us are trying to say is that this sort of stated policy won't get you votes. How are you going to achieve any change if you are not the party of government?

(Your sarcasm was appreciated, Galaxy. It's a comment I've been tempted to make )

I agree, night owl, that the leader of the LP can be criticised and held to account in a constructive way. The party is always stronger than the leader and it needs to be a 'broad church'. The main thrust of the Party should be working towards a Labour victory together as many of us did under JC even if he was not our choice. As I posted previously I campaigned in 2017 and 2019 for a Labour government although I had my reservations re JC as leader material. I still tried to sell him and the policies on the doorstep. Unfortunately we were all working within a peculiar framework in both those elections when Brexit loomed larger than anything else. The next 'non-Brexit' election, should we actually get one from this current government, should be a truer reflection of where people stand politically.

I voted for both Jeremy Corbyn and then for Keir Starmer, for Jeremy Corbyn because his policies are the ones that I would like to see implemented and for Keir Starmer because he looked like the most likely candidate to win an election and because I got the impression that he was also going to stand by the policies of Jeremy Corbyn.

I am waiting really to see what his policies are.

Has he said anything about the upcoming likely evictions for example.

I don't really think it is fair to expect the left wing of the party to have to just accept more right wing policies without a word of dissent though. And compared with the vitriol that was poured on Jeremy Corbyn we have been very restrained. (I think particularly vile were the prurient posts about Jeremy Corbyn and Dianne Abbott)

I don't think I have posted any personal attacks on Keir Starmer, but I am still not sure what his priorities are or his vision for our country if we did have a Labour Government.

But are people saying he cant be criticised? My concern is when people who are labour supporters are implying that peoples votes arent welcome that's not criticism it's part of what led us to this mess in the first.place.

Trisher : 'They believe there were elements on the right of the party who effectively destroyed Labour's chances and they are not prepared to sit back and see that happen anymore.'

you are so right, let's just sit back and watch factions of the Labour Party to do that even more effectively.

As for Blair and what he did? That is in the past - move on. Starmer IS NOT BLAIR ! FFS

biba70 I'm quite prepared to move on, unfortunately the driver either doesn't know, doesn't want to tell anyone, or knows if he does tell people they will leave, which way this is going. Perhaps if you can explain his socialist beliefs, you know the ones which have so far given him chances to condemn an education minister, speak up about asylum seekers and oppose the destruction of the public health system, I might feel better about him.

That is what it feels like though, Galaxy, as if everyone who supported the policies of Jeremy Corbyn is supposed to quietly forget about those policies and just support the new leader because he is good at PMQs.
I'm just not sure who I am supposed to be supporting because I don't know his vision for the country.
I know we are being told to just move on, but maybe it is just a bit too soon.

Most of the LP policies at the last election were excellent and I'm sure that most supporters would agree. Towards the end JC started announcing more policies and the general public began to query how they were going to be funded. After all, we'd had 10 years of austerity and the Tory govt telling us that there was no money tree.

Furthermore Johnson was more popular with the public than Corbyn and they believed everything that he said, especially those in the constituencies behind the red wall. I saw an interview with 4 middle aged men, working in the gig economy and leaving during the week in a small bedsit. They said that Johnson was one of them and he would see them right.

Surprise, surprise, Johnson managed to shake the money tree and to come up with Labour policies. He has already broken promises and is trying to break more, that were made as part of the Brexit arrangements. But the people still like him.

IMO it was impossible for any other politician at the GE to change the minds of those people, of whom there were many. I've never understood why poorly paid, working class people should vote for an entitled, Eton educated Tory, but they did. Unfortunately Corbyn didn't have much hope of winning with that sort of attitude coming from voters in what had been Labour's heartland.

When we first moved to this rural area many years ago I was puzzled about the reason that low paid farm workers voted Conservative. It was because their bosses were Conservative and they were living in farm cottages. Some might have rebelled in the privacy of the polling booth but of course they could never speak "out of turn" because they had too much to lose.

It seems that this fearful, subservient mentality still exists. But why?

I think with all respect if you talk about people like that they arent going to vote for you.

Sorry, Galaxy what people like what?

If you talk about people being fearful and subservient it isnt going to make them think well this is the party for me they have a clear understanding of what I want. If you consistently talk about people being misled by the MSM (with the implication that they are stupid) then again it's not a rallying cry is it. When I say 'you' I dont mean you as an individual varian I mean the way the labour party and the lib dems as well for the matter have consistently talked about the working class for many years. And both parties have become mired in issues which have no relevance to those in the constituencies they so desperately need to win back.

I do not ever refer to "the working class" in that way Galaxy. Working people, of whom I am one, have always varied a great deal, in many ways, including in their voting habits.

The people who puzzle me are the poor people, poor in monetary terms and in their freedom of choice, who chose to vote Conservative.

Interestingly I think that the voter profile is changing and the LP is attracting more of the middle class professional vote.

I think that's probably true but is that enough for the Labour party in terms of votes?

varian

I do not ever refer to "the working class" in that way Galaxy. Working people, of whom I am one, have always varied a great deal, in many ways, including in their voting habits.

The people who puzzle me are the poor people, poor in monetary terms and in their freedom of choice, who chose to vote Conservative.

Don't forget that even poor pupil are proud and have aspirations. They don't want to be associated with going to foodbanks, claiming benefits and living in run down housing. They don't want to be the objects of charity and are suspicious of state help.

Blair got it absolutely right with his "education, education, education" speech because he gave people hope. Whatever he did after that is another matter, but at that point he was upbeat and positive.

The Conservatives have positioned themselves as the party of aspiration and "levelling up". They also promised freedom from the EU and all those pesky Brussels bureaucrats. Time will tell what they deliver.

Whitewavemark2

Interestingly I think that the voter profile is changing and the LP is attracting more of the middle class professional vote.

Which is one of the reasons "traditional" Labour voters turned to UKIP/Brexit Party and why Farage positioned himself as a "man of the people" and emphasised patriotism and all that WW2 imagery.

It's also why Cummings is trying to cause division between Northern voters and London.

There is such a huge gulf between Tory promises and what they deliver.

In spite of all the rhetoric, it always ends up with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

When Theresa May stood on the steps of Downing Street and talked about the "left behinds" I felt physically sick. It was just like Margaret Thatcher's pious recitation of the prayer of St Frances in 1979.- and look how that worked out.

But they were going to deliver Brexit and that was what many in those constituencies wanted. If there had been some sort of consistent

This is exactly what happened throughout the EU Referendum and the last 2 General Elections!

Some openly spew the line/mantra they think voters can be pigeon holed into working class/poor or posh toffs and wealthy and they should vote accordingly.

If they don't vote Labour the group think is they are therefore by default the uneducated poor, idiots who read right wing rags, and now for goodness sake 'fearfull and subserviant'.

No credit is given for individual thought or voters refusing to be 'put in their place' by those who think they know how others should vote./think.

As this is about 'both sides of the pond' the same is happening in the USA and an example would be Biden saying ' If you don' t vote for me you ain't black ' . OR Hilary Clinton calling those who don't vote Democrat ' 'The basket of deplorable '

Hells Bells you will kick yourself into touch if insulting those who simply choose to vote for a different party names because of some sort of intellectual snobbery or thinking your working class background is somehow different to another person's working class.

Sorry. If there had been some sort of consistent strategy about showing clearly the benefits of the EU it might have been a different story. And I dont mean just under Corbyn, this goes back years.

Yes if you tell people to bugger off and vote Tory dont be surprised if eventually they do exactly that.

Pogs that emoji was at my inept posting not at you!