on both sides of the pond- the extreme left is scuppering their own cause

many (not "may")

Cummings has focus groups down to a fine art. The Labour Party really could learn from him.

Dinahmo

lemongrove

A few focus groups? As opposed to the whole country voting?
I have no idea why left wing posters are so fixated on ‘sham democracy’ ‘foreign interference’ and so on.....coukd it be because the LP lost?
Russia would have loved him to be in Number Ten, in any case.

Cummings is using focus groups all the time. One of his latest plans is to try to reduce the power of the London Mayor. The reason being that people in the north want to see London get a good pasting!

Agreed. Divide and conquer! What many people need to realise is that London has some of the poorest (and richest) boroughs in the country. The pavements really aren't covered in gold for most.

Jabberwok

But surely it is little people like us, the general public a large who DO decide the next government!? It's these folk who have to feel some sort of affinity with a leader, in other words a leader needs charisma , needs to be believed and inspirational . T.Blair had plenty, to the point that he could charm the
birds from the trees! G.Brown had none! Rishi Sunak any one?!!

We've drawn swords on may issues, but I agree with you. It is the "little people" in key constituencies who decide on the government of the day. Whatever I personally think of their views, I've never dismissed them and I think that's what Corbyn & Co did, maybe because they weren't ideologically pure enough. If Grandad's attitude is typical, it's not surprising.

My vote doesn't matter. I live in a safe Conservative seat and that's not going to change, but I'm still entitled to my protest vote. I'm a LibDem member because it's the only opposition here at local level.

I went out canvassing with our candidate during the last election campaign. He's a local stalwart and personally popular. However, a number of people said they didn't like the Conservatives much, but couldn't vote LibDem either. The reason they gave was that they feared a LibDem/Labour coalition and they really couldn't stand Corbyn.

Mr Kite, not Mr Pike - he wasn't in Dad's Army, sorry

"Starmer would have been firmly rejected by the LP, so he wouldn't even qualify." posts Trisher.

I'm not so sure trisher. After all Hugh Gaitskell, a very moderate figure, whom we would now regard as a social democrat, was a popular Labour Leader. Like Harold Wilson, arguably the most successful Labout PM, he was an economist and not a horny-handed son of the soil.

However we are not living in 1959 and if our remaining shop stewards are still like the pompous and pedantic Mr Pike, they need to move into the 21st century.

lemongrove

A few focus groups? As opposed to the whole country voting?
I have no idea why left wing posters are so fixated on ‘sham democracy’ ‘foreign interference’ and so on.....coukd it be because the LP lost?
Russia would have loved him to be in Number Ten, in any case.

Cummings is using focus groups all the time. One of his latest plans is to try to reduce the power of the London Mayor. The reason being that people in the north want to see London get a good pasting!

But surely it is little people like us, the general public a large who DO decide the next government!? It's these folk who have to feel some sort of affinity with a leader, in other words a leader needs charisma , needs to be believed and inspirational . T.Blair had plenty, to the point that he could charm the
birds from the trees! G.Brown had none! Rishi Sunak any one?!!

I think that Boris, like Churchill was brought in for one reason only, Churchill as the only person who could get the war, 'done' and of course take the blame if it all went wrong ! Boris, the only person who could get Brexit done and ditto!! After the war Churchill was dismissed by the public, as I think Boris may well be, or perhaps even wants to be! Both men, 'One trick ponies' if you like! Another problem with Corbyn was that he was too old!! Mind you, compared to DT and particularly JB in America, perhaps I'm wrong!!!!
Yes trisher , you are right, my first post was a bit patronising, it was difficult to put it any other way, as I believe it to be basically sad but true!

In 1959 varian Starmer would have been firmly rejected by the LP, so he wouldn't even qualify.

The thing is, Labour could be (note, I'm not claiming it is) the perfect political party now, and it would make no difference. The system is fixed (my previous comments).

I'm not sure what can be done to fix the rot of the financial / foreign / big business control of our electoral and political systems, but little people like us, casting our votes, aren't the ones deciding who will govern our country.

So when has Starmer been a 'star act' biba70? Apart from at PMQT which no one watches. Post me one link to a public speech which outlines his beliefs, his policies, his criticism of this appalling govermnment or any other vote winning idea.

Does anyone remember the 1959 film "I'm All Right Jack" and the character of Mr Kite, played by Peter Sellers?

Do we think Mr Kite would have supported Jeremy Corbyn or Kier Starmer?

growstuff I realise that. I don't think I said anyone shouldn't be part of that only that I disliked it and couldn't see any other reason for anyone supporting Starmer. Instead of coming back with reasons Starmer is best you attacked the language I used accusing me of factionalism-it's just a short way of describing ideas-which actually I think proves my point tat there is no other reason for supporting Starmer
Callistemon most of the people I knew who supported Corbyn simply believed in democracy and socialism. They consistently wanted a united Labour movement which is possibly where they failed-leaving people in place who hadn't the same ideals.

Trisher, I think you are totally wrong on this one occasion. Those of us who admire KS, do not do so as if he were a pop idol - this is insulting. We admire him for his calm, experienced, well prepared and researched insistence on not taking an BS from Johnson and co. He is a star act, not because he is a star- but because he is so good at it.

So, he alienates the left- and then what? Tories get in again - and that is supposed to be much better for the left. Really?

I so agree that the Press did everything to discredit Corbyn. Totally wrong and unfair. I liked Corbyn, admired him as a campaigner for a very long time- but he was just not the right candidate to become pm. He would of course have been so much better than the incompetent, arrogant buffoon we have now- I'll grant you that.

If Labour does not get its act together - we will be led by Cummings, the ERG and co for a very long time- despite their vast ineptitude and worse.

Is that what the 'left' want?

I agree, growstuff, that a cult grew up around Corbyn, but it was a carefully cultivated one.
If people did not subscribe to that then they were accused of being right wingers, even lifetime Labour voters.
It may well be looked back on as an unfortunate episode in the history of the LP in years to come.

trisher I'm afraid I despair at factionalism. Calling people Corbynistas or Blairites or whatever doesn't help.

You can't tell people to be more interested in policies than personality cults. People hate being told how to think. In any case, a cult grew up around Corbyn. Unfortunately for him, not enough people bought into it.

Given that the "enemies" are the potential voters who need to be wooed, it's never a good idea to be confrontational.

Comments such as that one about "enemies" make me think that there are some people in the Labour Party who are more interested in being class warriors than fixing real world problems such as shortage of genuinely affordable housing, lack of job security and jobs with decent wages, lack of quality apprenticeships and training, a benefit system which isn't fit for purpose, tax system ditto, underfunding and siphoning off to private outsourcing of education and healthcare, inequalities in education and healthcare, abolition of support services for children, underfunding of some former industrial areas, etc etc.

What are your views on the above Grandad?

Firstly I despair of the personality cult which politics has now become. As far as I can see this is the main reason for people supporting Starmer. It's nothing to do with policies but purely that they think he looks and behaves like a leader. Now at a time when a leader can be an ex comedy show regular, with a history of infidelity, dodgy financial deals and political incompetence you do wonder what makes a good leader. Starmer may appeal to those tuning in to PMQT but most aren't going to be doing that. He will I think alienate the left wing ( call us Corbynistas if you wish) without managing to attract back the Labour heartlands, leaving him I suppose with the support of the few Blairites who remain. Anyway it doesn't look good for the LP.
The left wing policies were enormously popular. Much was acheived in spite of the MSM attacks and the right wing central office conspirators. More could have been done, but Brexit over shadowed everything. Unfortunately Starmer doesn't seem to be building those policies.

Grandad you must have heard the story about the new MP who referred to members opposite as "our enemies" and was immediately corrected by a colleague who told him "those on the other side are our opponents. Our enemies are on this side"

trisher I'm sure that many do want re-nationalisation of the trains because the present system is a shambles in many ways.
However, I think what they feared with Corbyn was a return to old-style nationalisation of services with all the problems and strikes that entailed. Looking back, not forward.

This country needs services which are modern, forward looking, clean, safe and fit for purpose and I don't think people trusted him to deliver on any score with his background.

The problem is that the Parliamentary Labour Party (PLP) is part of the whole Labour movement of Great Britain. Starmer has proceded since his election as if the Labour Party is not part of such.

By example, excluding all on the left of the party with the exception of Long-Bailey from the shadow cabinet.

Sacking Long-Bailey from that position and not replacing her with someone from the left of the PLP.

Giving way to very large compensation claims without consulting the National Executive Committee or the trade unions who will be expected to fund that expenditure and other claims and prosecutions in the pipeline.

Starmer must come to realise that he has to bring the whole labour movement with him if he is not to see continued factional conflict throughout the movement which will make the PLP unelectable into the future.

Tony Blair was a master when first elected as leader of the PLP in bringing all onboard and in that making fundamental changes to the structure and policies of the whole movement. In later years Blair and Brown lost that skill to bring all with them and we all know how that ended.

However, Starmer must look back and learn from how Blair achieved what he did in his early leadership years, for if not disaster is staring him in the face.

But of course many on this forum do not wish to see such matters really debated, and just wish to see all indulge in unquestioning Starmer worship.

Jabberwok

I think there is one thing that has been forgotten in this saga of skullduggery and general monkey business, and that is that the election was won by a landslide by Boris's definite promise to 'get brexit done!) The general public, you know, those ordinary folk without degrees or think tanks or statistics, people who are not, by and large intellectuals, who don't read the Guardian, preferring the Mirror or the Sun, were sick and tired of JC and Co flip flopping and procrastinating, being, as these poor dim unintellectual people saw it, completely baffling as to what labour really thought or meant! Labour threw the election away, it didn't need any help from any outsiders, ordinary people saw to that, those millions of everyday folk that have the last say-in the ballot box!

I think that's somewhat patronising, but I agree that Brexit was a factor. Johnson & Co had a clear message, which people could understand.

However, I still think there was more to it than that.

BTW Grandad I voted Labour in 2015.

Galaxy

And in my view those who supported corbyn were those to whom having a labour government mattered the least.

That's consistent with my observations.