on both sides of the pond- the extreme left is scuppering their own cause

ps plus the media.

My view is that England (not the rest of the UK) is traditionally a Tory country, mainly due to the distribution of land and wealth.
The only time Socialists prevailed was for 20-30 years post WW2 when the country was on its knees, even some of the wealthy. Then for a short time with Blair.
So Labour needs to get it's act together to provide a strong opposition and reign in the Tories. This can only be done if the various factions can work together - I was hoping Corbyn could do that.
The trouble is that the Tories are systematically taking over our systems of checks and balances eg Law courts,Banks, Civil service.

The extreme polarisation and fractious debate within our communities and politics ultimately fails to serve the UK’s best interests - for that we need a truly representative Parliament.

Creating a better society for British people, in which genuinely representative, informed and deliberative democracy can thrive, is at the heart of the campaign to win Proportional Representation. This is all too obvious in the UK's response to the pandemic and it's beyond urgent that change comes soon.

Well I see the continued argument for Starmer seems to be "we like him so be quiet". I'll be quiet when I have some indication that this man intends to stand up for socialist beliefs and introduce a socialist agenda abiding by the policies which were agreed, and I have yet to see a single post showing what he really believes, or showing him speakng our on issues that really matter. And yes we have a shit government but that is another discussion. If they are all you can produce to support Starmer things are worse than I thought.
Isn't suggesting a left winger like me join UKIP a bit idiotic? Now the Communist Party I could understand.

Labour members on Starmer as leader.

Approve: 77%
Disapprove: 6%
(Source: Opinium 25/07/2020)

So contrary to what some posters would have us believe, those disapproving are an incredibly tiny minority.

They have a few choices imo.

Shut up and show some loyalty.

Shut up and form a party which you feel supports your beliefs - like UKIP for example.

They could actually use all that hot air and turn it to good use by criticising this immoral, corrupt and incompetent government. There is so much to criticise it is almost embarrassing.

For heaven's sake, please stop going on about Keir Starmer and what he has or hasn't done. It's getting very boring. He won the leadership election at the beginning of April - less than 5 months ago. He became leader during the current covid crisis and the next GE is over 4 years away.

FFS what do you expect him to do? He has been attacking Johnson on the many and various cockups made by the govt. Parliament is now in recess. Give the man a bl...y chance!

For those of you who say that not many people watch PMQs, I and most of my friends do. More people should watch in order to see what a prat Johnson is. Even several of my French friends and acquaintances do. Not so much now but they used to when (sadly missed) Bercow was Speaker. Given half a chance they'd all be imitating him.

I looked at points 4 &9 and thought that with the current headlines about asylum seekers arriving in the UK by boat I would look to see what Starmer had said about this. Surprise, surprise! there was nothing (If anyone does find anything please do post it) There was a very interesting article by Paul Mason www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/08/labour-won-t-win-turning-its-back-refugees
I do agree that pandering to prejudice isn't going to win votes and only really challenging the problems and placing them firmly at the Tory's door will help.

Iam64, in regard to your post @08:08 today, the "policy list" you paste in that text was Jeremy Corbyn's policies as voted on by the Labour Party Annual Delegate Conference throughout the term of his leadership.

Starmer was elected as leader on a manifesto that he would maintain those policies, but he has made no reference to that matter since his election.

No real information in regard to this year's Delegate Conference has come forward in the light of the Covid-19 crisis as far as I and many many others are aware. There has been some reference from Starmer's office of a limited online conference being held, but what powers that conference would have and who will be allowed to virtually attend has not been specified, again as far as I am aware.

The above has caused much speculation and even suspicion in the affiliated membership, and Len McCluskey articulated that situation well when he stated a few days back that "no one knows where the Labour Party is heading in regard to policy issues at this point in time".

So, once again by Starmer not being open and visual to the Party, movement and nation we have ever deeper rifts, suspicions and divisions brought into being in the Labour Movement.

These 10 pledges have been broken already.

actionnetwork.org/petitions/10-broken-pledges

Yes I agree it should have been sung from the hills.

Galaxy I'm not defending the way Pupil Premium has been implemented either and I know there all sorts of anomalies, but there's no doubt that it has been a very valuables source of income to schools with high percentages of children from deprived backgrounds.

Clegg was an idiot for not realising how it would be spun and not explaining his reasoning more robustly.

I agree that pupil premium was one of the most important policies in terms of tackling inequality, I am not completely convinced by the way it has been implemented but as a policy it was excellent. Much more important for children from deprived backgrounds than tuition fees.

BTW The student fee "fiasco" was typical of Labour Party muddled thinking.

Over half of all people (mainly Labour supporters) never benefited from going to university. Clegg was the minor party in the coalition and he "traded" subsidies of fees for the Pupil Premium, which is still worth over £2 billion to children of more deprived families. Clegg's argument was that money being spent on pupils who had already made it successfully through school would be more fairly spent on giving everybody a good start.

I have two children who have paid student fees. My daughter started university in 2011, before the fee increase. My son started after 2011 and has had to pay the increased fees.

HOWEVER, my son will probably pay back less than my daughter because the formula was changed. It depends how much they earn over the next 30 years. If they are lucky enough to be high earners, they'll pay back more, which seems fair, as they will have benefited from their university education.

The Labour Party pledge to scrap tuition fees in 2019 was ridiculous, as it would have benefited mainly middle class voters and would have created all sorts of resentment from current graduates, who are already paying back their fees or those who have already finished paying them back. I'm afraid it was one of the "goodies" promised by Labour at the last minute, which would have created more problems than it would have solved.

Starmer's ten pledges - for those who ask what he stands for:

1 economic justice (increase income tax for the top 5% of earners, reverse the tories cuts in corporation tax, clamp down on tax avoidance
2 social justice
abolish UC , support the abolition of tuition fees, invest
in life long learning
stand up for universal services and defend our NHS
invest in services that help shift to a preventative approach
3 Climate Justice
4 Promote peace and human rights - no more illegal war
5 Common ownership - public service in public hands
6 Defend migrants rights
7 Strengthen workers rights and trade unions
8. radical devolution of power, wealth and opportunity
9. Equality
10. Effective opposition to the Tories

The state pension age for women was raised in the 1990s!!! Clegg had nothing to do with that. WASPI women should have kept up with the news. What's your evidence that Clegg was responsible for the raising of the age in 2011 for all people?

Yes young people have never forgotten how they were sold down the river in regard to University Tuition Fees and that was well over four years ago.

The Liberal Democrat Party have never, and will never, recover from that treachery towards its core young activist supporters.

You’re right there Grandad1943. And let’s not forget that Cleggie accelerated the change in state pension age - WASPI women are still cross - voting for the Lib Democrats is toxic in the eyes of many silver voters.

I totally agree with trishers above post. Can anyone inform me as to the policies that Starmer really stands in support of? He was elected to leader on a manifesto of support of Corbyn's core policies and to end factionalism and bring unity to the Labour Party.

However, no mention of policies has been made since Starmers election as leader and the shadow cabinet has been filled with right-wing MPs with the original exception of Long-Bailey. On sacking Long-Bailey Starmer did not even fill that vacancy with someone of a similar political image as RLB. The foregoing is hardly the actions and words of someone who wishes to bring unity to the Labour Party.

We also see almost every evening on the news broadcasts Johnson and other cabinet members visiting factories and distribution centres as they give briefings on the Covid situation etc, but where is Starmer with his response to those briefings?...........nowhere to be found.

In all the above it is hardly the actions (or non-action in many scenarios) of a prospective leader of this nation or even leader of what is supposed to be a racial reforming party.

Was Kier Starmer not elected leader by the members of the Labour Party?

It seems that those who support Starmer are unwilling or unable to accept any criticism and regard it as some sort of betrayal

It's not that at all, trisher. It's frustration that you and Grandad don't seem to want to accept that people won't vote for the party you want. And that if Labour doesn't get sorted out we're condemned to tory rule for years and years.

Frustration makes me ask: 'WTF do you want?'

It seems that those who support Starmer are unwilling or unable to accept any criticism and regard it as some sort of betrayal. It isn't telling people not to vote Labour to wonder if they will. It is looking at what is happening and how successful the LP is likely to be. The only thing I have seen about how good Starmer is is praise about his performances in PMQT, but how many people watch that? Instead of criticising those questioning his performance and his abilities some should examine his appeal more closely.

growstuff

Brexit will be completed by January 2021. Being a Leaver or Remainer will become irrelevant. What will be relevant is whether the Conservatives deliver on their promises over the next four years and whether Brexit turns out as people had expected. I have no doubt the Conservatives will throw a few sweeteners at strategic areas, but it depends whether it's enough, especially in a post-Covid world. People could very easily become disillusioned with their new allegiance.

If the LibDems get their act together, they could take back some of the LD/Conservative marginals. Brexit will no longer be an issue, but there are already signs that some traditional Conservatives are becoming disillusioned with Johnson in particular.

Current 16 and 18 year olds won't forget their exam results.

Four years is a long time.

Yes young people have never forgotten how they were sold down the river in regard to University Tuition Fees and that was well over four years ago.

The Liberal Democrat Party have never, and will never, recover from that treachery towards its core young activist supporters.

Whereas obviously endless years of conservative government is so much better. Great stuff.

If the right in the Labour party do not believe in the core values of the broader Labour movement they have always had the option to dis-affiliate from that movement and make their own way in the world of politics.

However, they have never had the guts to carry out such action with the exception of Tony Blair in his later years in office. His attempts to find outside financial donors to the organisation ended up with the Labour Party being in the pockets of the Bankers and Rupert Murdoch.

Great stuff for an organisation with its roots based in socialist equality. ???

I am afraid if the lib dems do what I think they are going to do and appoint Layla Moran they will not be making any kind of comeback. I am praying they wont do that but it seems likely.

Meanwhile, I don't like bullies or people who call me names!