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Vaccine - I’m seriously concerned about this

(80 Posts)
ayse Mon 31-Aug-20 17:22:08

CONSULTATION ON VACCINE ROLL-OUT: CALL TO ACTION

This consultation has just been launched, and we only have until 18th September to respond, via this survey consultations.dhsc.gov.uk/5f43b8aca0980b6fc0198f9f?fbclid=IwAR2l0heUZE7j0wknFftX1ckIe1RurcoZVvk0OFs1GduOHl60qSgtBerdxi0

Very important that as many people as possible respond.

I've read through quickly and have listed some of the main points of the consultation, with a few suggestions for arguments to make in response, to kick off a discussion. Please comment with further suggestions.

To summarise:

1) The Human Medicine Regulations already give the government the legal right to authorise an unlicensed COVID-19 vaccine. If a vaccine was available before the end of the transition period, but hadn't been licensed by the European Medicines Agency, it could be rolled out unlicensed BEFORE THE END OF 2020.

2) There is already reduced liability for manufacturers of unlicensed medicines:
"The current legal framework already recognises that if manufacturers or healthcare professionals are asked to supply an unlicensed medicine in response to a public health threat, it is unfair also to ask them to take responsibility for the consequences of the use of that medicine in the way that they normally would."

3) The government is proposing to "clarify" the legislation by extending this exemption from liability to pharmaceutical companies placing unlicensed products (ie vaccines) on the market, to give them the "assurance that they will not be exposed inappropriately to civil liability."

4) There is provision within the regulations to remove immunity for civil liability for "serious breaches" of conditions. The government is suggesting that there should be an "objective test" of whether the breach is serious enough for immunity to be removed. They are considering whether the "objective bystander" should be another pharmaceutical company (I kid you not ?) or "the man or woman in the street".

5) There will be an enormous expansion in the workforce legally allowed to administer vaccines, to include "midwives, nursing associates, operating department practitioners, paramedics, physiotherapists and pharmacists."

6) The government is proposing a relaxation of rules to allow advertising of unlicensed products, including the Covid-19 vaccine, and to allow promotion through national campaigns.

Ideas for inclusion in response:

1) Authorising an unlicensed vaccine could be detrimental to safety, and could potentially cause injury and death. This is a very dangerous proposal, and should be rejected.

2) The suggestion that the vaccine could possibly be rolled out before the end of the transition period has very worrying implications for safety. Vaccines normally take 8-10 years to develop.

3) Given the reduced time frame for safety testing, there should be no exemptions for liability. If pharmaceutical companies are encouraged to prioritise speed of development over safety, and are exempted from any liability if things go wrong, there could be disastrous consequences. The fast-tracked H1N1 vaccine caused serious lifelong side effects, including narcolepsy, to a significant number of people.

4) Given the history of bribery and corruption within the industry, pharmaceutical companies should not be designated "objective bystanders", in considering whether there has been a breach serious enough to remove immunity for civil liability. This should be the role of the "man or woman in the street", in keeping with the legal traditions of the UK.

5) Any advertising of the vaccine should carry a clear health warning that it has been fast-tracked and therefore not all the usual safety tests have been carried out. It should also state that it is unlicensed (if this proposal is adopted).

6) There will clearly be risks to taking this vaccine, so it should not be made mandatory, nor should access to the workplace or any other aspect of society be made conditional on taking it. Where there is risk, there must be choice. Forced medical procedures may be routine in totalitarian dictatorships, banana republics and police states, but they have no place in a democracy or any civilised society.

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/distributing-vaccines-and-treatments-for-covid-19-and-flu/consultation-document-changes-to-human-medicine-regulations-to-support-the-rollout-of-covid-19-vaccines?fbclid=IwAR1xQRP53_SMIfKMrUenLYDbgwJvoE2PYY8laU6BDvfXIbqScyPdP8PAqSQ#responding-to-this-consultation

janipat Thu 03-Sep-20 19:47:49

ayse sorry I've contributed to your thread going offtrack. 3 of the vaccines in development now are going through clinical testing unlike the H1N1 vaccine. I can't imagine our government would even consider making it compulsory, and anyone taking it would surely be aware it has been developed and tested extremely quickly. If you want to wait until the developers can say with absolute certainty that no ill effects will follow, then we'll not get a vaccine for many years, if ever. No medical procedure or drug is without any hazard. I do agree though that it has to be presented in a clear and honest way.

janipat Thu 03-Sep-20 19:15:08

Smallpox was eradicated by vaccination. Many other diseases have been seriously curtailed by vaccination, polio for example, for which there is no cure. Rubella vaccine has saved innumerable babies from being born with severe disabilities. I shall have a vaccination against this virus the minute I'm able to, and have also volunteered for any testing project.

MawB2 Thu 03-Sep-20 19:13:45

You just try to help people to look to a wider awareness and just get told it's nonsense!

Well when it IS nonsense/fake news whichever you prefer, without any understanding of the medical facts, what do you expect?

How can NannyC2 protest she is not anti-vaxx and yet come up with such arrant and dangerous nonsense as this

(t)here is no evidence whatsoever of the ability of vaccines to prevent any diseases
Citing a retired geologist renowned for her anti-vaxx theories (which have been disproved by the medical fraternity) does not make things true!
A little knowledge can indeed be a dangerous thing and there may be people reading such pronouncements who believe them and cancel their children’s MMR or polio immunisations.
Never mind Covid, there have already been cases of measles in recent months even resulting in fatalities.
Enough pseudo-science!

janeainsworth Thu 03-Sep-20 18:21:42

You just try to help people to look to a wider awareness and just get told it's nonsense!

NannyC2 I’m open to listening to other people’s opinions and increasing my knowledge and awareness through properly researched, evidence-based articles in reputable journals.
What I’m not open to are fake news and bad science.
Yesterday you posted this:
“(t)here is no evidence whatsoever of the ability of vaccines to prevent any diseases.”“To the contrary, there is a great wealth of evidence that they cause serious side effects.”

That is not only nonsense, it is dangerous nonsense, but I’m quite confident that the vast majority of Gransnet members will recognise it as such.

I ask you again, what was your role in the NHS?

garnet25 Thu 03-Sep-20 17:25:07

"Alegrias" Thank you so much for your contributions on this thread, you speak for me and I'm sure many others. As a retired bioscientist myself, and chemist my husband, we have both volunteered to have the vaccine
if volunteers our age are required.

Alegrias Thu 03-Sep-20 16:00:00

One last slightly off-topic post, sorry ayse!

I'm quite new to Gransnet and try very hard to stay on topic when I'm posting. But when I see nonsense posted, I have to say something about it, otherwise it all adds to the background of fake news and anti-science.

Right, back to the Strictly thread for me.... smile

ayse Thu 03-Sep-20 15:55:05

Not spaghetti, thank you for pointing out the point of the post. Quite often the OP point is subsumed into more general discussion.

NannyC2 Thu 03-Sep-20 15:50:13

I just echo the sentiments of NotSpahetti.

You just try to help people to look to a wider awareness and just get told it's nonsense! I don't profess to know all the answers. An expert wanted to take part in a debate about vaccines, but those in authority appear to be afraid to take up the challenge - I wonder why?

My answer is 'time will reveal the truth.'
Just for the record, I was not anti vaccine, but do certainly question the process now.

I truly hope you all keep well and safe.

NotSpaghetti Thu 03-Sep-20 14:43:43

Well thank you Tweedle - I am pleased people feel confident enough to do this.

I don't know if I have anything particularly unusual in terms of genes or an unusual medical condition. I am a carrier for an inherited disease though so I'll take the advice of my daughter's virologist friend and give it a miss till they have done the initial "experimental millions" first.

I do hope it works Tweedle and you have no nasty side effects.

Tweedle24 Thu 03-Sep-20 10:47:09

I have just volunteered to take part in the vaccine tests. They are looking for more older people.

If anyone else is interested, look on the NHS site. The more people willing to take part, the quicker it can be rolled out to the rest of the population.

It is not a live vaccine and there are warnings of possible swelling at the site and 24hrs temperature and general malaise. Those are the same warnings as the ordinary vaccine,

janeainsworth Thu 03-Sep-20 10:42:33

notspaghetti this is from the consultation document:

“To evaluate responses fully we need to ensure we reach a wide number of people from diverse backgrounds and experiences.
The following set of questions will help us better understand who is responding to this consultation and in what capacity.”

I hope they don’t have to waste too much time on, or are unduly influenced by, the sort of arrant nonsense posted by nannyC2.

Personally I think a public consultation on this sort of matter is ridiculous. We have highly trained scientists, virologists, immunologists, experts in public health etc, - what is the point of consulting people who know virtually nothing about what is involved (I include myself in that category) or worse still, have fervent belief in pseudoscience, quackery and smoke and mirrors?

NotSpaghetti Thu 03-Sep-20 10:25:50

This thread wasn't really about the usefulness or efficacy of vaccines - it was really about the government consultation document and the proposed changes.
A lot of these seem to be changing medical practice and/or responsibility.

Hetty58 Wed 02-Sep-20 21:18:08

Anti - vaccination misinformation has caused untold suffering in the USA measles epidemic.

While nobody can claim that any medicine is 100% safe, surely it's a case of balancing the risks of vaccination against the risks of catching Covid!

Alegrias Wed 02-Sep-20 20:54:28

Oops, cross post SueDonim and MawB2

Alegrias Wed 02-Sep-20 20:53:18

Oh my goodness NannyC2. One Google search and I found this:
"Viera Scheibner is a Slovak-Australian anti-vaccination activist and retired geologist. ...... Since her retirement from the Department of Mineral Resources, New South Wales, Australia in 1987, Scheibner has been active in the anti-vaccination field, writing and giving lectures opposing vaccines and vaccinations."

Not exactly a vaccines expert, although I have no doubt she knows a lot about rocks.

"In 2001, Brian Pezzutti criticised Viera's anti-vaccination campaigning in the NSW Legislative Council, describing Scheibner as providing "misleading information", and highlighting her March letter to the Medical Observer which "makes claims that are not supported by the documentation she referred to". Pezzutti stated that it was "very important for people to realise that the information provided by Dr Scheibner is not accurate" "

I don't think I'll be taking anything she says about vaccines as fact.

MawB2 Wed 02-Sep-20 20:50:49

NannyC2

Just found - Global Research...

"Independent experts agree that all vaccines are hazardous to human health because they contain mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, phenoxyethanol (antifreeze), and other toxins able to weaken and potentially destroy the human immune system.

Noted vaccine expert Dr. Viera Schiebner stressed that

“(t)here is no evidence whatsoever of the ability of vaccines to prevent any diseases.”

“To the contrary, there is a great wealth of evidence that they cause serious side effects.”

In her book titled “Vaccination 100 years of Orthodox Research,” she explained that vaccinations are biological weapons'.
.......and .......elsewhere .....

Despite years of research elsewhere, no successful coronavirus vaccines were ever developed, notably not in the West

Viera Scheibner is a Slovak-Australian anti-vaccination activist and retired geologist. From 1958 until 1968 she was assistant professor in the department of geology at Comenius University, Bratislava
Born: 27 March 1935 (age 85 years), Bratislava, Slovakia

Did you mean this person?

I don’t see why I or anybody should be following the say-so of a retired Geologist rather than the vast majority of the medical profession. confused

SueDonim Wed 02-Sep-20 20:48:54

Dr Viera Schiebner is hardly an unbiased expert. She’s firmly in the anti-vax camp.

MawB2 Wed 02-Sep-20 20:44:53

Independent experts agree that all vaccines are hazardous to human health because they contain mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, phenoxyethanol (antifreeze), and other toxins able to weaken and potentially destroy the human immune system
However, TB, smallpox, diphtheria, polio, measles, whooping cough, shingles, dengue fever, yellow fever, etc etc etc are actually even more hazardous to human health which is why people used to die from them in their droves.
Are you saying you are anti-vaxx NannyC2 ?

janeainsworth Wed 02-Sep-20 20:38:18

Crossed posts with your post at 20.29 nanny.
Could I ask in what capacity you worked for the NHS?

janeainsworth Wed 02-Sep-20 20:35:17

Did you know that it is claimed people who did not have a flu jab did not get Covid?
Are you serious nannyc2?
a) I haven’t heard that claimed, so I’d be interested in a reference. Who is ‘claiming’ it?
b) I have had the flu jab for the last 10 years at least and so far I have escaped Covid, anecdotal but there you are.
c) most people in this country haven’t caught Covid. That obviously includes people who haven’t had the flu vaccine, who make up the majority of the population.
c) Even if evidence showed that there was an association between failure to have a flu jab and protection against Covid, it would not prove a causal relationship.

NannyC2 Wed 02-Sep-20 20:29:33

Just found - Global Research...

"Independent experts agree that all vaccines are hazardous to human health because they contain mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, phenoxyethanol (antifreeze), and other toxins able to weaken and potentially destroy the human immune system.

Noted vaccine expert Dr. Viera Schiebner stressed that

“(t)here is no evidence whatsoever of the ability of vaccines to prevent any diseases.”

“To the contrary, there is a great wealth of evidence that they cause serious side effects.”

In her book titled “Vaccination 100 years of Orthodox Research,” she explained that vaccinations are biological weapons'.
.......and .......elsewhere .....

Despite years of research elsewhere, no successful coronavirus vaccines were ever developed, notably not in the West

NannyC2 Wed 02-Sep-20 20:02:27

Yes, Alegrias. I do research drugs especially as I have to take some on repeat prescriptions.
We know the flu vaccine doesn't work well and it has been around ages now. Did you know that it is claimed people who did not have a flu jab did not get Covid?
Even some doctors don't take the flu vaccine!!
I have listened to doctors who know what they are talking about.
I keep repeating, but it's all about MONEY and the drug companies. I know about payments for drugs - I worked in the NHS!

ayse Wed 02-Sep-20 19:42:03

I always look at side effects of drugs etc. before taking them. It is said that if you take more than 3 prescribed drugs they can work against each other.

I’m not prepared to take a new drug/vaccine without careful thought and to allow drug companies to escape responsibility for damage caused is indefensible.

Latest research suggests that steroids can have a beneficial effect against this particular virus. At least we know about the side effects of steroids.

Having said all that, I may have to accept taking this vaccine if I wish to visit my family in New Zealand anytime soon.

Alegrias Wed 02-Sep-20 19:30:19

I'm just wondering, those of you who say you won't have it because you don't trust it, don't want to be a guinea pig etc; do you do a lot of research on any other drugs that you might be prescribed for other illnesses?
Or do you just trust the doctor?

janeainsworth Wed 02-Sep-20 15:55:36

No medical treatment, drug regime or vaccine is completely safe and even when properly tested, adverse reactions can still occur, NannyC2.