Cultural appropriation

I think that if people sometimes copy music, clothing , food etc from cultures and backgrounds different to their own because they enjoy & like them that is not CA. It is different if a person, or country, starts claiming something as "theirs" that clearly originates elsewhere, profits from it or uses it to undermine the the cultural identity of the group/ people/country where things originated from.
If people wear cornrows but have racist attitudes to the black community, enjoy a curry but do not like Asian communities etc etc. is hypocritical at the very least...

'Maybe you’d be happy to continue to act in a manner which someone had told you they find upsetting or offensive, Monica. I am not. '

SueDonim Would you do as someone said if they were using 'Do not do this or that it upsets me' as a way of dominating and abusing you? I was brought up to face up to bullies, not submit to their abuse.

Sadly many women do submit to abuse and abusive partners, rather than stand up to them. I do not understand why you cannot see that this is unacceptable.

I also have a beautiful Jade green Chinese Jacket bought back from Hong Kong years ago. Just wish I could still fit into it I think it's a size 8.

Western women who choose to live and work in certain areas of the Middle East, Saudi and Iran, to name but two places, have to appropriate the enforced dress codes of those countries.

SueDonim posts on this thread have been very enlightening and have certainly given us food for thought about the significance of traditional African hairstyles. Also some other good posts particularly from Monica. Hairstyles aside, as we are living in a shrinking global world with far more migration than ever before, there is an inevitability that host countries will assimilate aspects of other cultures. Very much reminded of that when we visited Seville last year. I believe the bell tower on the cathedral there, was constructed by Moorish artisans and at a later stage evolved from a minaret type structure into the bell tower. Personally I think the Moorish influences of southern Spain make it the unique place it is.

I’ve now (tried to) read the everyday feminism article posted by sue, but tbh found the article hard going. I think I get what Cultural appropriation means in terms of literature & film & drama, but the bit about eating in Mexican restaurants had me
I’m not sure in what circumstances one is culturally appropriating(not ok), or just exchanging(ok) or even trying to assimilate(ok)
I personally haven’t oppressed any Mexican people. I’ve eaten in many Mexican restaurants in different parts of the USA. I think the restaurant owners were pleased to have our business.
Similarly clothing. I still have an embroidered Chinese jacket that I bought in Hongkong 40 years ago and still wear it occasionally.
I suppose I could have been seen as a member of the colonial powers.
But guess who sold me the jacket - a Chinese woman in the China products emporium. And who is oppressing the people of Hongkong now?
(Joining you on your ramble Doodledog)

MissAdventure

You were?

Yes, however rambling, I was saying that whilst the Mohawk style could be cultural appropriation, it could equally possibly be copying a style from another culture (eg Viking), as there are only so many ways to wear hair.

Whether or not that matters, I don't know, to be honest, but I'll not waffle on any longer .

You were?

I get confused when it comes to fashion, as there are only so many ways that hair can be worn, and so many styles of clothing, and young people will always want to look unlike their parents, so are almost certain to look outside of the 'norm', whatever their culture. Traditional dress is, in most cultures, kept for festivals and so on - I don't even know what a traditional English outfit would look like, although the other UK countries have kept their national dress.

Fashion seems to me a bit like knitting stitches, where I am on safer ground . I think it is generally agreed that nobody can copyright a knitting stitch, as it is impossible to prove that it hasn't been knitted before, but when a number of stitches are put together in a particular way, and made into a pattern with shaping and so on, the pattern can be copyrighted.

Sometimes fashion trends follow films or TV series - I have seen a fashion for the hairstyles used in Vikings, for instance. I have no idea how accurate the costumes and hairstyles are, but they may well have been worn by people all over the world at one time or another, and some are not unlike the Native American ones. When you are looking at cultures that spanned hundreds of years there is sure to have been some overlap, by accident or design.

I'm not sure what point I'm making now - I was responding to the question about the Mohawk photo .

Me too MissA! And it was dyed different colours too!

I had my hair like that in the 80s, before appropriation was invented.

Is this cultural appropriation?

Tradition dictated that Mohawk warriors cut the sides of their heads leaving only a strip of hair over the top of the head, universally recognized today as a 'Mohawk. ' This style is also called the scalplock. ... We valued the length of hair for its strength, spirituality and power.”

SueDonim

Maybe you’d be happy to continue to act in a manner which someone had told you they find upsetting or offensive, Monica. I am not. If someone told me what I did was offensive or upsetting to them, I would apologise and stop doing it.

It’s nor for me to determine who can be permitted to be offended and who must suck it up.

If somebody told me that they were upset by seeing my blonde hair in cornrows ( wouldn’t happen....looks a painful hairstyle) then I’d say ‘too bad’.It’s high time everybody who posesses common sense to say the same.
They can carry on being offended if they like.What utter nonsense it all is.

Callistemon

Cuskee Dah?

Now you’re just showing off!?

That's her, chewbacca.
Thank you!

I just wish I could remember her name.

Rachel Dolezal MissA?

In the 1970s I bought a sari in India and wore it some years later in Sri Lanka, where we went on holiday with a Sri Lankan friend.

Was that wrong? Our friend complimented me on the sari and I felt less conspicuous than when I wore Western clothes as there were very few Western tourists in Sri Lanka at that time. I don't think "cultural appropriation was a thing then.

Sister Rosetta Tharpe is fantastic!

Gwyneth

Pretty good you just need to include the n sound
cuskee n dah. The pronunciation of the Welsh language is the hardest bit.

Oh yes, I realised I'd missed the n!

I have just read the article from everyday feminism and am now sitting here spitting nails. I don't know if SueDonim is American or not, however, she is unaware of how Brits (and the French) reacted to black music. So a little potted history for her.

First Josephine Baker. She arrived in Paris aged 19 in 1925. She was an instant success and became a European star. Despite her fame when she returned to America to perform she was banned from certain hotels and restaurants.

Many blues artists came over to Europe in the 50s. They liked it here because the people were generally more friendly than in America. Perhaps I should say their audiences.

Black American GIs brought records over during the war and also merchant seamen visiting the various UK ports. From 1955 onwards Decca started to import not only American jazz records but also blues.

A DJ called Mike Raven broadcast regularly on one of the pirates back in the sixties and his programme comprised American blues music, including Sister Rosetta Tharpe. It was through listening to him that I started to like the blues and have several old records.

During the early sixties many American blues players toured in Europe. They influenced British musicians and there was a flowering of blues music during that decade. John Mayall, Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page to name but a few. As their popularity grew, so the people who bought their records searched for the originals.

Music is an area where there has been masses of cultural assimilation. There are many videos on You Tube of the venerable black American musicians playing with the (slightly) younger white ones.

Until anyone buys my clothes or pays my bills, then I don't think they can dictate what I wear or so my hair.

Cultural appropriation, to me, is the likes of the woman who pretended to be black, and was a loud voice on black issues (until her parents; both white, pointed out her "mistake')

I just wish I could remember her name.

Does that go for clothes made in all countries other than your own and your own culture, as has been mentioned earlier many cultures wear styles from others.
If I am complimented on the suit and other items of non Scottish clothing it would lead to a very boring conversation.
Anyway we have a large black population here and lots of great markets selling stuff from all cultures.
I have Morrocan sandals and foulards, Indian blouses, native American jewelry, my X is South African and DD wears SA rugby shirts.
Where does it end, oh and the "Kilt" is fancy dress and as tartan was banned by the English for many years why do they think they can appropriate it now.

felice but if you were to wear the suit, accept compliments but not tell where the fabric was from or explain about your friend it would then become cultural appropriation, as people would probably assume it was made locally.

I have a beautiful suit which was a gift from an African friend, she had it made for me in Africa and is of traditional fabric.
I have worn it on many occasions and have only ever received compliments from all nationalities.
I do not feel I have appropriated anything and surely if my friend had, she would not have given it to me, and not been proud when it is complimented on when we are out together.

But the big battles still aren’t seen as battles by many.

Many on this forum deny racism and the fact that many in the UK are in fact racist. So sometimes the small battles have to be fought so people can even see that the big battles exist.

Microagressions are put off as “not that bad/not an issue/others had it worse/but what about this”.

We don’t get to decide what a “silly/small” hill to stand on is. People feeling oppressed do.

I wouldn't say that people are whiners, but I do sometimes think that if they chose their battles so as to win the big ones, the smaller ones would not have to fought at all.

Why do so many just assume people are “whiners” or “snowflakes” or “that isn’t a real problem”?

Why not learn to listen and say “ok, I’m sorry I didn’t know that was hurtful, I’ll do better”? Why the “this is out of control? People are ruining the cause” or “my black friends say this is stupid”?

People need to actually listen to what is being said as opposed to yelling out that what is being said is stupid