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Is this the path the UK is taking?

(64 Posts)
MaizieD Tue 15-Sept-20 21:09:12

The author of this piece is an International History professor at Strathclyde University and a German national. I thought it was interesting. Several British people have likened our current political 'atmosphere' to 1930s Germany. This is from closer to home, so to speak.

Start
As a German I have often asked myself how a country can fall. My country of birth fell far beyond the deepest abyss. How else could one describe what happened: a European country that developed an industrial-scale killing machinery designed to eradicate lives. Millions of them.
I have never found growing up in a country with that history easy. But that is, of course, not the point at all: this history is not a story about my feelings. It is the story about a murderous fascist regime and the lives it extinguished. This fact must never be forgotten.

If anything, I think it's good that I felt uneasy growing up in Germany. It's what forced me to frequently confront the question I began with: How could Germany get to the point of carrying out systematic mass murder? Like questions about other atrocities, eg in Rwanda, this too
has no simple answer. We can cite ideology; some undoubtedly were willing executioners while others chose to look away. Ultimately, the story is complex, its outcome always tragic. But one point is clear: the downfall of Germany did not begin with genocide—that is where it ended.

At this point in this thread (at the very latest), some will say that 1930s Germany is not 2020. They are right: it is impossible, and would be wrong, to draw direct parallels with a decade that is nearly a century removed from ours. I am not suggesting that we do.
But historical developments can inform how we interpret what is happening today. Understanding them can help us make sense of the present. And that is what we must try because there is nothing normal about what happened in Parliament last night. Nothing familiar.

It was brazen for the UK Government to announce the intention of breaking international law with the Internal Market Bill. For a majority of Parliamentarians to support that, however, is not just brazen; is not simply a dark moment. It is as pitch black as it gets in a democracy.
What if not respect for the rule of law is a responsibility that we can all unite behind? As others have rightly noted, this is not about Brexit or even the union. It is simply about what is right and wrong. The answer to that question does not come in a limited and specific way: it comes only in the way of what is right. Breaking the law is not right. I have now witnessed the country I chose to make my home dismantle itself for 4+ years. Sometimes slowly, often at speed. Dismantle what it stood for; dismantle every standard in the land; its reputation.
Lies - normalised. Hatred - normalised. The proroguing of Parliament - normalised. Forcing over three million people, neighbours, colleagues, friends and family, to apply to stay or face deportation - normalised. No deal - normalised. Now the breaking of the law is next in line.

The problem is that each normalisation plays with fire and eventually that fire becomes uncontrollable. If trust in politicians, in institutions and the rule of law is further undermined, there is a real danger of collapse. Mr Cummings may well rejoice at the thought of that,
but nobody else should even contemplate it. Look at the US to see what happens when democracy itself becomes hollowed out to the point that post boxes are being removed to prevent people from voting and white supremacists are praised by the President.

But it can't happen in the UK, right? Of course it can. There is no magic shield. We know of far right vigilantism on the Kent coast and hotels around the country, asylum seekers being hounded. We know of the British Union of Fascists' flag being openly displayed on Trafalgar Sq.
We know of the deliberately manufactured ‘culture war’ about the Proms that was designed solely to create further division; we know of the accusations of 'wokeness'. And then remember too how peace in Northern Ireland is being jeopardized without even the blink of an eye.

This would be bad enough on its own, but now couple it with the Covid crisis. This is the UK’s perfect storm. And that brings me back to Germany’s downfall. Its initial trigger was not genocide nor concentration camps; it was not Nazi ideology. It was Germany's own perfect storm.
It developed for different reasons specific to the German national story - one reason why we must not blur or confuse it with what is happening in the UK now; that would be both ahistorical and wrong. But there is one thing I need everyone to understand: Germany's perfect storm
might well have passed, but it consolidated instead. There were different factors, but a vital one was the hollowing out of democracy and the undermining of the rule of law. That is why, as a German, I ask every MP to understand that. I ask them to look at Hungary and the US to see what that can mean in 2020. This is not about parallels, its about common patterns. Recognizing them and understanding them in their context helps us. I truly hope MPs in the UK will use that help to stop that perfect storm from consolidating here.
I cannot predict what its outcome would be if that fails - history no longer helps us with that. But Brexit is premised on stripping away rights that much we know. The possibility of that continuing unchecked does not bode well for anybody, no matter your political views. /end

End

Doodledog Wed 16-Sept-20 11:15:04

I think that the way in which people have been persuaded to turn on one another over the past few years is chilling. We have been systematically divided into Leavers and Remainers, Boomers and Millenials, 'Woke' and Blinkered, North and South, Experts and whatever the opposite is, 'Covidiots' and 'those who agree with our way of dealing with the virus' and so on. The UK is dismantling before our eyes, and soon we will be four tiny states with animosities going back centuries. Any group of people is easier to control if it is divided and easily manipulated, which is what we are becoming.

Not only are people perfectly happy to see others as 'them', but they are happy to report one another, to name and shame on social media, to get really angry with one another, and to support the idea of 'marshalls' ensuring that we don't meet in groups of more than six.

I find all of this scary.

Elegran Wed 16-Sept-20 11:02:52

We could sleepwalk down the same path if we don't stay awake to the erosion of the institutions and laws that ensure that we don't go there. That has happened in other countries and at other times. What magic cloak of protection does anyone think we are special enough to have, to walk blindly in safety? Do they believe that all the safeguards we have just fell into place while no-one was paying attention?
Quis custodiet custodies ipsos?

Daisymae Wed 16-Sept-20 11:02:19

I agree about feeling very uneasy about how thing are turning. Equally I know a lot of people who have stopped engaging with the news, which can't be good for democracy. It feels like the main influencers in government have their own agenda which had little to do with any political manifesto. I'm not sure where we are headed but anyone with a strong grasp on things us excluded from the cabinet. Why would any leadership act in this way?

EllanVannin Wed 16-Sept-20 10:52:41

My late H was a very clever man as was his father and I never fully knew where their stance on politics really was, except that now and again my H used to say that we should have lost the war to Germany. To this day I could never understand as he never went into a political explanation.
What his take on politics today would be would be interesting if he'd lived.

growstuff Wed 16-Sept-20 10:46:20

PS. The Nazis never had an overall majority in any free election.

growstuff Wed 16-Sept-20 10:44:44

Witzend

Anyone seeing parallels with 1930s Germany might do well to read A Berlin Diary, and The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich - both by William Shirer, an American journalist who was there in the years before WW2 and during the first part of it.

Both are immensely readable, whether you usually enjoy this sort of thing or not. I don’t, but still found them unputdownable. I first read the Berlin Diary many years ago - it was bought by my father during WW2 - and only recently revisited it, which led to the other (a very fat book so I got it on my Kindle.).

Much as I deplore this shitshow of a government, I don’t think we’re off down that path just yet.

I've read the Shirer book. I've also read countless original diaries by Germans from the period. Shirer was American and an outsider. The diaries I've read were by people actually living in Germany. Quite honestly, they could have been written by GNers. Germany was a highly educated and civilised country with a thriving culture, but people were unhappy with the government and the financial situation. They were suspicious of Communism and felt their national pride had been dented by the Versailles Treaty. They had been persuaded that there was a global Jewish conspiracy. They saw Hitler as a breath of fresh air and overlooked the more sinister things he said. They had little idea what was about to happen.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 16-Sept-20 10:38:17

MaizieD

^Much as I deplore this shitshow of a government, I don’t think we’re off down that path just yet.^

I'd be really interested to know why you think that, Witzend?

We have a bill before Parliament which would enable the government to have absolute power over withdrawing, amending and adding to legislation without any recourse to Parliamentary scrutiny or approval. Do you not find that rather worrying?

Step by step

Alegrias Wed 16-Sept-20 10:37:40

The German people in the 19th/early 20th century were amongst the most cultured and educated in Europe. When Nationalism started to rise, educated people laughed at the silly little man with the funny moustache and thought it would never amount to anything. Then he got elected. Not so many years ago, David Cameron was referring to UKIP in uncomplimentary terms, and now Nigel Farage is the most successful politician in Britain, without even being elected to the UK Parliament. He has got exactly what he wanted.

We're not exceptional in these island, we might think we are but the last few months and years have shown that anything could happen. Our "inbuilt tradition of fairness and democracy" could disappear in a puff of smoke, and nearly has already.

Greta Wed 16-Sept-20 10:26:51

It worries me greatly that we now have a government who feels breaking international law is justifiable. Also, that parliament no longer needs to be involved in decision making. What makes it worse, I feel, is that so many people seem to be unaware of what is going on or don't care. We seem to sleepwalking into a very dangerous situation.

MaizieD Wed 16-Sept-20 10:20:20

Much as I deplore this shitshow of a government, I don’t think we’re off down that path just yet.

I'd be really interested to know why you think that, Witzend?

We have a bill before Parliament which would enable the government to have absolute power over withdrawing, amending and adding to legislation without any recourse to Parliamentary scrutiny or approval. Do you not find that rather worrying?

Witzend Wed 16-Sept-20 09:51:18

Anyone seeing parallels with 1930s Germany might do well to read A Berlin Diary, and The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich - both by William Shirer, an American journalist who was there in the years before WW2 and during the first part of it.

Both are immensely readable, whether you usually enjoy this sort of thing or not. I don’t, but still found them unputdownable. I first read the Berlin Diary many years ago - it was bought by my father during WW2 - and only recently revisited it, which led to the other (a very fat book so I got it on my Kindle.).

Much as I deplore this shitshow of a government, I don’t think we’re off down that path just yet.

FarNorth Wed 16-Sept-20 09:48:57

there is nothing normal about what happened in Parliament last night.

That is the point, grandad.
The general populace is working away as well as it can, within the restrictions on it, and is at the mercy of its leaders who are, meanwhile, shamelessly and publicly taking steps to break the law.

Elegran Wed 16-Sept-20 09:41:51

Do, do read the book I mentioned. As a novel it is no literary masterpiece, but it is a chilling map of the transition from one kind of nation to a completely different one, by small steps, all of which followed on from one another and involved (mostly) perfectly honourable people doing what seemed best at the time, or what was asked of them by the country they loved.

Elegran Wed 16-Sept-20 09:36:20

History doesn't provide exact parallels, with identical coloured uniforms and identically worded legislation. Instead it shows pointers to the ambitions and methods of those who want power, and those who would like to see the end of the rule of law and the onset of anarchy.

Dictatorship comes masked with a concern for the mother country and the use of a goal that is so dazzling that it blinds onlookers to reality. It uses persuasive false logic to convince voters to back him - because a dictator likes to think that he is in power because of "the will of the people" and there is very often a powerful and sinister advisor, inside the country or outside it, whose motives are not what they seem (did anyone actually vote for anarchy?).

It takes years for "the people" to recognise the garden path up which they have been led, and every year makes it harder to retrace their steps.

MaizieD Wed 16-Sept-20 09:35:27

I one hundred percent agree with all that Davidhs has started in his post @08:15 today. For anyone to believe that Brown Shirts and political stormtroopers will appear on our streets at any time in the foreseeable future in total and absolute nonsense.

Oh, FGS, Grandad. Read the article, read the bit I reposted. Stop wittering on about Brexit and think about what is happening politically.

We might not have any brownshirts but we've a media and a government that doesn't hesitate to characterise those who oppose their thinking as enemies and traitors. And a fine army of rightwing thugs who wouldn't mind a bit of a fight..

growstuff Wed 16-Sept-20 09:32:05

I can't really see road haulage companies and distribution centres being much help against the destruction of democracy. grin grin grin

growstuff Wed 16-Sept-20 09:26:52

Davidhs

The comparison with Nazi Germany is nonsense we are not going to see Brown Shirts in the streets or Gestapo watching our every move. However it looks increasingly likely we are going to see a good deal of disruption if there is “no deal”.

On the principle of a level playing field the EU have not budged one micron, the UK is not going to cheat and gain advantage on any product entering the EU. They want their rules obeyed, as does every country, as we do.

If we don’t cooperate there are a lot of sanctions that the EU could impose, the UK will reciprocate and everything grinds to a standstill. It will get resolved - in time, until then I would not want to be in the export or transport business.

Try reading diaries, newspaper articles and other primary sources from pre-1933 Germany. The Germans didn't believe that their country would turn out as it did either. There are definitely elements of what happened then in what us happening in 2020 UK.

Elegran Wed 16-Sept-20 09:22:17

Why do so many of you think we are immune? Read "IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE" a reprint of a fictional novel written 75 years ago by Sinclair Lewis in 1935, as he saw Germany developing under the Third Reich and listened to Americans saying smugly ^"It can't happen here! We have a democracy!" and see how fascism can be disguised as patriotism, measures gradually introduced to "make us great again" which take away that democracy, and laws passed which prevent those measures from being discussed. today.

Read it, then compare the story in the book with the US under Donald Trump - predicted 75 years ago - and finally compare the US today with the path the UK - yes the UK, that island fortress of honour and decency - is drifting toward under the guise of "freedom". Let me remind you again of the old but true fact - The price of freedom is eternal vigilance - and that we are progressively losing ways of exercising that vigilance.

You can get the book on Amazon. www.amazon.co.uk/Cant-Happen-Penguin-Modern-Classics?tag=gransnetforum-21 I read it a few years ago, and I see that there is now a reprint. Significant, that, it means that others besides me think that it has become very relevant.

Grandad1943 Wed 16-Sept-20 09:11:49

I one hundred percent agree with all that Davidhs has started in his post @08:15 today. For anyone to believe that Brown Shirts and political stormtroopers will appear on our streets at any time in the foreseeable future in total and absolute nonsense.

Britain may well find itself in a serious situation if no trading agreement can be reached with the European Union by the end of the year. Should such a situation arise then the Channel ports, especially Dover would play a critical role in the situation Britain could find itself in.

Long delays to the ten thousand trucks per day that cross to and from Europe would quickly create shortages of many everyday items in the United Kingdom especially perishable food.

However, the road haulage industry and its associated distribution centres have overwhelmingly proved there resilience and adaptability throughout the Covid-19 crisis.

Many companies have come away from Just in Time (JIT) delivery schedules in favour of holding stock where that is possible. Therefore there is good reason to believe that a severe transport crisis which could well bring about a political crisis can be avoided.

That stated the situation in the channel ports will be critical on the first of January and in the weeks that follow and that is the area for all to watch.

MaizieD Wed 16-Sept-20 09:08:04

This thread was NOT ABOUT BREXIT.

Before you start wittering on about Brown Shirts I respectfully suggest that you re-read the article

At this point in this thread (at the very latest), some will say that 1930s Germany is not 2020. They are right: it is impossible, and would be wrong, to draw direct parallels with a decade that is nearly a century removed from ours. I am not suggesting that we do.
But historical developments can inform how we interpret what is happening today. Understanding them can help us make sense of the present. And that is what we must try because there is nothing normal about what happened in Parliament last night. Nothing familiar.

Then think about what is happening in politics and in public discourse.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 16-Sept-20 08:22:02

The report showed that barely a third of British people “trusted” MPs to act in the interest of the public.

The British form of democracy is still based on the medieval concept of Lords, monarchy and commoners, with the pre-democratic elements of the HoL still surviving. This part of our governing institution survived to continue to rule after greater democracy was introduced.

Davidhs Wed 16-Sept-20 08:15:43

The comparison with Nazi Germany is nonsense we are not going to see Brown Shirts in the streets or Gestapo watching our every move. However it looks increasingly likely we are going to see a good deal of disruption if there is “no deal”.

On the principle of a level playing field the EU have not budged one micron, the UK is not going to cheat and gain advantage on any product entering the EU. They want their rules obeyed, as does every country, as we do.

If we don’t cooperate there are a lot of sanctions that the EU could impose, the UK will reciprocate and everything grinds to a standstill. It will get resolved - in time, until then I would not want to be in the export or transport business.

Grandad1943 Wed 16-Sept-20 08:03:54

Britain is an island nation and that has always affected its history and national attitudes.

I believe it was an underlying factor in the referendum result that has taken Britain to withdrawal from the European Union. The Tory party were able to convince the British people that it was not in their interests or tradition to be "ruled from Europe" and that resounded with a great many in Britain.

However, I feel that such thinking will never allow Britain to travel the political road of Germany and Italy in the 1930s.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 16-Sept-20 08:01:11

In January 2020 Cambridge university published a report that showed that dissatisfaction with democracy in the U.K. was at a record high.

So whether there is sufficient evidence that democracy is under threat in the U.K. or not, people perceive that it is and there must be a reason for them to think this way.

Galaxy Wed 16-Sept-20 07:44:54

Thanks Maizie for raising this, my father is German so I am really interested in the points you have made.
I think pretending Britain is different in some way is very dangerous, people are working hard and with great resilience in most countries, I am sure there were many people working hard in Germany at the time, this does not make Britain special in some way or immune to populism etc.