We need action now as we have the benefit of hindsight

The trouble is this government can’t deliver on anything.

Grandad I don't know why you thought I deserved a lecture. I have been banging on about a "short, sharp, shock" for months - with no excuses and no loopholes, which makes me sound as though I support a dictatorship.

I would even have closed down schools for a couple of weeks, with the proviso that there is quality well-planned and well-resourced online teaching. I have always believed that would result in fewer school closures and less disruption in the long run.

In theory, the more people can be totally isolated (short of putting them in individual cages), the shorter the period of pain will be. It wouldn't kill the virus completely, but isolated outbreaks could be controlled. As it is, it looks as though the UK has missed the boat again.

I had a despairing email from a friend in the NE who works for the NHS saying none of her staff feel they can ‘go through that again’. One of her colleagues, a fit, healthy, upbeat young man took his life yesterday.
A patient who tested +ve but was well enough to be discharged has said he’s not going to self isolate. They cannot report him as that would breach confidentiality.
She saw the protests in London against lockdown and wearing masks and said they ought to come and work on her ward for a shift.

Apart from the appalling death rate and the terrible pressures on front-line workers the worst thing about this pandemic is the realisation that there are so many stupid, selfish people in the world.

growstuff, there will be problems with any restrictions short of another full lockdown and furlough carried out as prior.

However, we have to get this epidemic under control if we are to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed and other essential services collapsing due to large scale infection among their employees.

Incidentally, I believe a second short full lockdown (with the exception of schools and essential retail) should be the way forward, followed by a slow gradual opening up as the infection figures justify and allow.

Sparkling

I will do what is asked of me but I am uncomfortable with it. Shops boarded up, too many working from home so the high street is suffering, cancer treatments postponed, children prevented from seeing their friends and family, high unemployment. Is this what living is going to be like? Existing. Why can't you get to see a doctor? Are they paid still, their colleagues in the NHS are working to the point of exhaustion, it isn't fair, if not in surgery they should be in the hospitals. Everyone has to pull together. It's not right that those on the highest incomes continue to be paid whilst other's on minimum wage in essential jobs slog on. I can see one of my grandchikdren struggling, he's lost his job and no prospect of another, how many in that position?. I have asked myself if protecting me is worth it when it's such a high cost for others. The answer morally to me is no.

The only hope is for people to do their bit rather than flouting the rules all the time. Pretending it's all gone away and life can go back to normal is what's caused this spike. Nobody's saying that schools, healthcare and jobs, etc aren't important, but just carrying on isn't the answer and will just mean it all carries on for even longer.

Grandad1943

Whitewavemark2

It also occurs to me that the fine is so huge that it may have the effect of discouraging people to take a test, if they can’t afford not to work they certainly can’t afford to pay the fine.

Then what?

I believe there is to be government help given to those on low incomes that have to self-isolate.

I also believe that the police and other authorities need to take a very tough line with those who flout the restrictions. With the "nutcase protesters" in Trafalgar Square yesterday riot police should have been used to very forcibly break up that so-called demonstration.

Those people were without a doubt there to cause maximum disruption and nothing else. Therefore in my view, the police were entitled to "disrupt them" with whatever measures that they deemed as necessary to as quickly as was possible restore respect for the emergency legislation and the health safety of all others in the vicinity.

I've looked into this government help. The details still aren't clear, but it appears £500 will be paid after the end of two weeks to people already on benefits, who have self-isolated. Goodness knows how it will be monitored, but the real problem is that most of those needing help won't be eligible. The lowest paid don't have two weeks' savings for day-to-day essentials and bills either.

There are already three million low paid self-employed who haven't been eligible for any help since the beginning of the pandemic. Most of them aren't eligible to claim benefits, so won't be eligible for this latest scheme. I'm afraid it's a smokescreen, but it makes a good headline to those who don't understand benefits.

I agree that strong action with Cummings would have sent a very clear message at the start of this crisis.

The problem is now having " let the genie out of the bottle" too early getting it back in again will take very tough action indeed.

Grandad1943

Whitewavemark2

It also occurs to me that the fine is so huge that it may have the effect of discouraging people to take a test, if they can’t afford not to work they certainly can’t afford to pay the fine.

Then what?

I believe there is to be government help given to those on low incomes that have to self-isolate.

I also believe that the police and other authorities need to take a very tough line with those who flout the restrictions. With the "nutcase protesters" in Trafalgar Square yesterday riot police should have been used to very forcibly break up that so-called demonstration.

Those people were without a doubt there to cause maximum disruption and nothing else. Therefore in my view, the police were entitled to "disrupt them" with whatever measures that they deemed as necessary to as quickly as was possible restore respect for the emergency legislation and the health safety of all others in the vicinity.

Take strong action with Cummings would have sent a clear message.

growstuff

Whitewavemark2

Scientific advise. These are the order of importance. Tbh I think most of us have already worked it out but just to reiterate.

Space. Face. Hands

Space is the most important factor, preferably Keep outdoors.

Wear a mask

Avoid touching shared surfaces and wash wash wash.

Space is the most important factor, preferably Keep outdoors.

How do the 8 million school pupils and their teachers do that?

School attendance is important, so I hope somebody remembers to tell the coronavirus cells to take time out and not spread in schools.

God knows!

I will do what is asked of me but I am uncomfortable with it. Shops boarded up, too many working from home so the high street is suffering, cancer treatments postponed, children prevented from seeing their friends and family, high unemployment. Is this what living is going to be like? Existing. Why can't you get to see a doctor? Are they paid still, their colleagues in the NHS are working to the point of exhaustion, it isn't fair, if not in surgery they should be in the hospitals. Everyone has to pull together. It's not right that those on the highest incomes continue to be paid whilst other's on minimum wage in essential jobs slog on. I can see one of my grandchikdren struggling, he's lost his job and no prospect of another, how many in that position?. I have asked myself if protecting me is worth it when it's such a high cost for others. The answer morally to me is no.

Whitewavemark2

It also occurs to me that the fine is so huge that it may have the effect of discouraging people to take a test, if they can’t afford not to work they certainly can’t afford to pay the fine.

Then what?

I believe there is to be government help given to those on low incomes that have to self-isolate.

I also believe that the police and other authorities need to take a very tough line with those who flout the restrictions. With the "nutcase protesters" in Trafalgar Square yesterday riot police should have been used to very forcibly break up that so-called demonstration.

Those people were without a doubt there to cause maximum disruption and nothing else. Therefore in my view, the police were entitled to "disrupt them" with whatever measures that they deemed as necessary to as quickly as was possible restore respect for the emergency legislation and the health safety of all others in the vicinity.

Whitewavemark2

Scientific advise. These are the order of importance. Tbh I think most of us have already worked it out but just to reiterate.

Space. Face. Hands

Space is the most important factor, preferably Keep outdoors.

Wear a mask

Avoid touching shared surfaces and wash wash wash.

Space is the most important factor, preferably Keep outdoors.

How do the 8 million school pupils and their teachers do that?

School attendance is important, so I hope somebody remembers to tell the coronavirus cells to take time out and not spread in schools.

It appears nobody's thought it through. If people think that they could be fined, they won't come forward for tests, won't report their contacts and won't use the allegedly world-beating app.

Forget all the blame games about students and ethnic minorities, etc. One of the biggest problems at the moment is that only 20% (approximately) of people who should be self-isolating, even if they are identified as contacts, are doing so.

Some of them genuinely don't realise that it means absolutely no contacts and still nip out for shopping or to take the dog for a walk and some need to work for financial reasons. Some don't seem to think it matters and that attitude isn't helped by those who claim that Covid and flu are the same.

The government is aware of the problems, which is why it's offering £500 to self-isolate. However, it appears that people already have to be claiming benefits to claim that money. It won't deter the self-employed and those on zero hour contracts, who are the ones most likely to be refusing to self-isolate because they genuinely do need the income. Meanwhile, they'll carry on spreading.

Scientific advise. These are the order of importance. Tbh I think most of us have already worked it out but just to reiterate.

Space. Face. Hands

Space is the most important factor, preferably Keep outdoors.

Wear a mask

Avoid touching shared surfaces and wash wash wash.

It also occurs to me that the fine is so huge that it may have the effect of discouraging people to take a test, if they can’t afford not to work they certainly can’t afford to pay the fine.

Then what?

£10000 fine for those caught breaking self isolation.

I wonder if this will deter Cummings?

I'm not sure these short localised lckdowns work. I live in Stockport, an area of Greater Manchester which went into local lckdown measures ( no meeting other households at home or in our gardens but we could meet in restaurants and parks) for four weeks then the number of new cases went down so restrictions were lifted. Now cases have gone up and we are under 'enhanced' alert, whatever that means! We still follow the rule of six.

I wonder if the proposed two week national lockdowns ( schools and work places open but with pubs and restaurants only offering takeaway food and a 10 pm curfew) will work? To me, it's a better option for our economy than a return to a total lockdown.

I really would not like to have responsibility for making any such decisions at the moment!

Just read the article in the link. The huge difference is that the UK isn't a third world country - yet. We do have the resources to completely separate different services and for there to be minimal impact on each other.

When I had a heart attack, I was taken straight by ambulance to hospital, which reversed into the cath lab, where a stent was fitted. I didn't even go through any other part of the hospital. The recovery ward was also in the same building. There wasn't any opportunity for cross infection.

Tell me why services for cancer and cardio can't continue. There should be excellent infection control anyway and there is no reason why pathways within hospitals can't be organised so that cancer and cardio patients don't ever come in contact with Covid patients. .

Sar53

Thank you Urmstongran for letting us know the situation in Spain. Anyone would think we were the only country struggling with Covid and trying to work out what to do to protect the economy, at the same time as trying to stop the spread.
This government hasn't always made the right decisions but I feel it's damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.
There are no rule books, no instructions, no rights and wrongs.
Children need to be at school, businesses need to be able to open but everyone needs to do their bit and follow the rules.

For goodness sake, the government has had months and has spent billions on getting things right and it's a shambles. There most definitely are rights and wrongs, as any competent manager knows.

growstuff

JenniferEccles

Whilst the concentration is on the control of covid, what about the many thousands of people whose lives are at risk from other illnesses like heart disease, cancer and strokes?

It’s already feared that many lives have been lost due to the cessation of treatment or simply the fact that people have been too scared to go to hospital for a diagnosis or treatment.

These people shouldn’t be ignored, but I fear that is what is happening.

Could we have the situation where more people die of other illnesses than covid?

There's no reason why services for cancer and cardiovascular can't continue, which has been noted in the latest recommendations. We just need a competent government to get people to organise it.

It's a myth peddled by the likes of Sikora that more people will die from cancer than Covid.

There are plenty of reasons why services for cancer and cardio can't continue.

Come on, you're an intelligent woman.

There is a lot of disquiet in the medical world about services being put on the back burner. Nothing to do with Sikora

There are plenty of links explaining the massive problems facing the whole world. I posted this link earlier. Maybe you missed it. It's worth a read

www.bbc.com/future/article/20200528-why-most-covid-19-deaths-wont-be-from-the-virus

Sar53

Thank you Urmstongran for letting us know the situation in Spain. Anyone would think we were the only country struggling with Covid and trying to work out what to do to protect the economy, at the same time as trying to stop the spread.
This government hasn't always made the right decisions but I feel it's damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.
There are no rule books, no instructions, no rights and wrongs.
Children need to be at school, businesses need to be able to open but everyone needs to do their bit and follow the rules.

Children do need to be at school, which is precisely why the government should have listened to the people who foresaw the difficulties and to mitigate them, not continue with the fingers in the ears, repeat the mantra approach.

JenniferEccles

Whilst the concentration is on the control of covid, what about the many thousands of people whose lives are at risk from other illnesses like heart disease, cancer and strokes?

It’s already feared that many lives have been lost due to the cessation of treatment or simply the fact that people have been too scared to go to hospital for a diagnosis or treatment.

These people shouldn’t be ignored, but I fear that is what is happening.

Could we have the situation where more people die of other illnesses than covid?

There's no reason why services for cancer and cardiovascular can't continue, which has been noted in the latest recommendations. We just need a competent government to get people to organise it.

It's a myth peddled by the likes of Sikora that more people will die from cancer than Covid.

It makes you want to tear your hair out.

Coronavirus has reached Europe? - let's close our border - oops, too late!
Coronavirus is here? - let's lockdown to protect ourselves - oops, too late!
Lockdown at last - let's use this window to create a test and trace system - oops, too late!

Heaven help us all.

Franbern in regard to your post @ 22:25 today, a second lockdown will slow the rate of infection. In that, it will protect the NHS from being overwhelmed and almost as importantly the essential services from severe numbers of infections among their employees preventing those services from operating.

So Franbern, if you do not wish to be sat at home in the dark after finding next to nothing on your local supermarket shelves you may do well to take serious note of the instructions of the government and then we all may get through this crisis with at least some semblance of normal life.

Then a return to restoring Britains shattered economy may begin.