Boris announcing in House of Commons now

Johnson will certainly go down in the history books as the man who destroyed the union, who destroyed our economy by leaving the EU and unnecessarily destroyed so many lives through covid.

The man is a monster.

The government can’t just print money with no debt, otherwise there would be no poor countries, they’d all be printing money off. They have to raise borrowed money eventually. We’ve only just finished paying off debts to the USA for WW2 loans

I should have also thought that people's savings have to be paid back and I strongly suspect with the banks being told they need to think about negative on interest, I think that is a fund that is not going to be there for long.

MaizieD

^The Government do not have their own money to bail us out in the case of lockdown. They have our taxes and what they borrow; the latter has to be paid back and the former is not available if people aren't working.^

With respect, Icanhandthemback, you are wrong. We have a sovereign currency. The government can issue as much of it as it wants. It doesn't have to be 'borrowed' or paid back. We have very little foreign debt and what there is is historic. Since we came off the gold standard in 1971/2 we have had the freedom to issue whatever we want to. I think that the government actually understands that because they are handing out £billions in dodgy contracts and failed test, track & trace, absolutely willynilly.

They just don't want the public to understand it as it will give them an excuse to privatise the NHS and anything else that they can. And to impose austerity and tax increases on us little people who pay taxes... (not the tax evading billionaires, of course)

Much of our so called 'debt' is actually people's savings and investments, by way of bonds, premium bonds and National Savings. The rest is direct funding by the Bank of England. Taxes do help to pay for stuff, but low revenues from taxation aren't critical.

So, are you telling me that there is absolutely no effect of the Treasury just printing more money? If that were the case, I am sure that all Governments would be doing it or do we just wheel our money round in wheel barrows to buy our groceries because I am sure that sterling would be severely devalued.

maddyone Yes, I made them ?

My daughter (who has defected to the South) sent me this card a few years ago:

Here's one service sector that will be massively expanded come 1st Jan 2021!

twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1316316827279142912

^ If you print more money since it still has to be supported by an unchanging amount of goods and services, so the prices of everything will go up and you have rampant inflation.^

There is a lot more that can be done in the UK before that happens. We need much more investment in green infrastructure, in the NHS, in social care and in public services for a start. And, as growstuff says, inflation can be controlled by taxation if necessary.

There is no reason why goods and services should remain unchanged if there is a demand for them. They haven't been finite in the past, so why now?

MOnica What the government then has to do is take that money out of circulation by taxation, which is a problem for a Conservative government, because it's against increasing taxes.

Spending into the economy always precedes taxation, not the other way round. More importantly, taxation can be used to redistribute wealth. The country can live with a degree of inflation.

MOnica, your post at 08.29 today sums up my views on why the infection rate here in the north is high. There are so many environmental, social and economic reasons for the high rate here. I expect we (Gtr Manchester) will move into the red zone very soon. I'm pleased that Andy Burnham and the other northern mayors have resisted its imposition, without the necessary financial support.
All this nonsense from the government, pre covid, about a northern power house. Poor House they mean. Thatcher killed off our old industries and ten years of austerity has done nothing to improve things.

*Maizie We have a sovereign currency. The government can issue as much of it as it wants. It doesn't have to be 'borrowed' or paid back.

Yes it can, but it has effects that are very damaging tothe country. Money gets its value from the goods and services produced in a country. If you print more money since it still has to be supported by an unchanging amount of goods and services, so the prices of everything will go up and you have rampant inflation. Double the amount of money in the economy and prices will double.

In addition the price we have to pay for imports will go up and exports will reduce because foreign purchasers can buy the same products cheaper elsewhere. Lending agencies will reduce the class of our borrowing from AA, which I think it is at present, to junk status so that no-one will want to lend us money and the value of the £ will fall because our currency is now worth so much less, exacerbating the problem with paying more formore expensive imports and exporting less because our prices are too high. As the government prints more and more money we will have galloping inflation, sky high interest rates, high unemployment and economic collapse.

This is why the quantative easing programme conducted bythe Bank of England over the last 10 years has been so carefully and judiciously conducted so that the governments ability to help itself by printing money does not have the catastrophic effects listed above.

As things stand at present we are in a prolonged period of exceptionally low interest rates and they may go negative for some. The government can borrow money at an incredibly low rate so that it does little more than repay the money borrowed.

Yes, of course the government can print as much money as it wants, but if it could be done without very serious effect on the economy, every country in the world would be printing money hand over fist - and they aren't.

I do not believe there is any evidence that Northerners as a whole are ignoring lockdown rules while those of us in the south are paragons of virtue. Many of the students at Northern universities will come from the south and many students at southern universities are from the north.

I think many of the problems in the north lies in their history of early industrialisation and modern poverty. Small cramped over crowded houses a high proportion of multi generational families living together, a higher proportion of older people with all the health problems that result from that plus living in long term poverty.

There are a host of environmental, social and economic reasons why COVID is so prevalent in the old imdustrial heartlands of Britain just resorting to cliches about northerners is neither helpful nor true.

A total lockdown will destroy our economy and the result will be far worse than the pandemic itself.

What do you think that carrying on as we are will do? The infection rate is racing upwards, hospitalisations are rising and the death rate is rising, too. How will hospitals cope if we continue at the current rate?
And how will the economy fare if more and more people are off sick, and are unable to work if they suffer long term effects?

The government isn't borrowing money, it's just issuing it straight from the Bank of England. With proper support for businesses that will remain viable once the pandemic is more controlled, and with help and retraining for people who won't be able to continue in their work, we should be able to weather it. We can live with a deficit; what is essential is to keep money flowing in the domestic economy.

A total lockdown will slow the virus but as soon as we come out of it, off we’ll go again.

But no-one is suggesting that a total lockdown is the complete answer. We need to fix the dismal test, track and trace; give local authorities the support they need to run their far more efficient operations; otherwise any measures are pointless. We need to reinforce social distancing, mask wearing and ventilation, too.

You are right, lockdown by itself won't solve the problem.

You’re right Lemon.
Individual responsibility is the key if we’re to avoid a total lockdown.
A total lockdown will destroy our economy and the result will be far worse than the pandemic itself.
A total lockdown will slow the virus but as soon as we come out of it, off we’ll go again.
If we all imagine what we’d do if we have the virus and act accordingly to protect others we may stand a chance.
While we live with selfish and stupid this will go on and on.

Sparklefizz

GG13 I am not excusing Mr Cummings or any rule breakers by the way, it is just a totally weak excuse to say because so and so did that I can do this

I totally agree.

I'm not saying that it's a good excuse. I'm just saying that people will use it. Because that's the way some people are.

If you're a leader you will be despised and disliked if you expect the people you lead to do things that you're not prepared to do. And some will defy you if they get the chance. It's basic psychology, for heaven's sake.

Susieq ‘the North’ is a big place.....it is not bearing the brunt because of poverty, it is bearing the brunt because of the selfishness, ignorance and and defiance shown by many people in certain areas that they will not put up with restrictions on their social lives.It’s by no means the only place with either poverty or selfish people, but at this time it’s the worst.
Starmer is now saying he wants a lockdown again with everything closed for three weeks, whilst Labour Mayors in the North believe nothing should be closed.
If these new balanced measures don’t work then there will be local lockdowns.The populace in those areas need to have a good hard think about being compliant.

GG13 I am not excusing Mr Cummings or any rule breakers by the way, it is just a totally weak excuse to say because so and so did that I can do this

I totally agree.

Crafty cat we don’t have to imagine anything about any other leader. Boris and his government were elected to run the country no matter what was thrown at them. This crisis, and it is a crisis, has shown us very clearly that this government is inadequate in many ways. We in the north are bearing the brunt as a result of deprivation, austerity, lack of opportunities etc etc. In my view we have two options a circuit breaker lockdown as offered by Keir Starmer or we get everything back to normal and take the risk associated with herd immunity. As a 70 year old I am doing what I can to stay safe, sane and solid.
We have to work together which is what parliament should have done as a coalition of the best brains from the outset. Nit too late to do that now! But Boris is not good enough or decisive enough.

Iam64
Your post demonstrates well two important points. One is that wherever we live, we could be in an area that’s either low, or barely has any Covid cases, whilst a few miles down the road, Covid can be rampant. And then the whole area is treated as the same, because it’s simply too difficult for the powers that be to divide areas so precisely.
And point two is that it is certain people who refuse to wear masks, or at least push the boundaries of mask wearing, such as wearing it under their chin. To be honest, I’ve seen every group represented in the under the chin brigade, old people, young people, people in the middle. Age doesn’t seem to have anything to do with it. Maybe socio economic factors have a bearing, but I suspect not. It may be to do with personality types, the non conformers perhaps. Anyway, my medic son in law has little confidence in mask wearing as a preventative, he feels there is no evidence, and it’s simply to make people feel they are doing something.

I don’t know! However I do wear my mask, perhaps I wear it more than necessary because I wear it all around our little town on the rare times I go shopping there, and I wear it when I enter the apartment complex where my elderly mother lives, until I reach her apartment.

There is no cure for stupid!

But that’s what stupid people do. And there are a lot of stupid people in this country. Is it right that those who govern us break the rules they set for everyone else?

Not at all if sheeple follow someone abusing the rules then they are stupid.

I am not excusing Mr Cummings or any rule breakers by the way, it is just a totally weak excuse to say because so and so did that I can do this

Maybee70 The problem is that there is no-one in the government that could do it better, they are all of them fools and while I have a lot of confidence in Keir Starmer, I have absolutely no confidence in the capabilities of any of the shower of people behind him that can swear allegiance to Jeremy Corbyn and all that went with him one day and completely change their views and direction of travel to swear allegiance to Keir Starmer and his vision for Labour, that is very different to Jeremy Corbyn's the next.

The Government do not have their own money to bail us out in the case of lockdown. They have our taxes and what they borrow; the latter has to be paid back and the former is not available if people aren't working.

With respect, Icanhandthemback, you are wrong. We have a sovereign currency. The government can issue as much of it as it wants. It doesn't have to be 'borrowed' or paid back. We have very little foreign debt and what there is is historic. Since we came off the gold standard in 1971/2 we have had the freedom to issue whatever we want to. I think that the government actually understands that because they are handing out £billions in dodgy contracts and failed test, track & trace, absolutely willynilly.

They just don't want the public to understand it as it will give them an excuse to privatise the NHS and anything else that they can. And to impose austerity and tax increases on us little people who pay taxes... (not the tax evading billionaires, of course)

Much of our so called 'debt' is actually people's savings and investments, by way of bonds, premium bonds and National Savings. The rest is direct funding by the Bank of England. Taxes do help to pay for stuff, but low revenues from taxation aren't critical.

GrannyGravy13

No whataboutery just pointing out the obvious.

Still spectacularly missing the point, GG13