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The reason people tolerate governments who lie

(71 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Tue 17-Nov-20 20:59:18

I watched an interesting interview this evening on Amanpour CNN. The interview was with a psychologist sociologist (I think was his title).

He was asked how people appear to believe the most outrageous lies told to them by politicians.

His explanation is that when you say to the apparent believers that their politician or policy of choice is a lie, they don’t hear that it is a lie, but that the politician is going to deliver what they want. So, yes, they know the politician is lying constantly, but they are willing to overlook it to get to their goal.

It is a phenomena that is new and is changing the face of democracy.

The traditional values of trust and honesty are being entirely undermined .

We are, he argues at a crossroads and it can go either way, where we continue down the road of accepting lies providing the politician delivers what we want, or we pull back and re-establish the values of trust and honestly.

That explains so much

ImStillGood Mon 23-Nov-20 09:50:34

Hetty58

The 'reason' voters often give is that things would be far worse with the other party. It's as if they are quite content with 'the lesser of two evils' and now expect nothing better.

The media and social media have an awful lot to answer for.

The unaware are easily led down a path where views, however mistaken, bizarre or deluded, are affirmed, balance is lost - and there is no reality check.

Everyone really should take the time to watch 'Social Dilemma' (on Netflix or YouTube).

Absolutely agree with you!

Whitewavemark2 Mon 23-Nov-20 09:45:15

M0nica

Obama was not a career politician. He came into politics after a career as a lawyer.

Initially, I think Trump entered the political race for publicity, not office. But voters voted for him because he was not Hilary Clinton. She was far too deeply implicated in stories of sleaze around Washington and her business interests. The Democrats could have won with a different candidate - and she did get more votes than Trump, just not as many delegates.

There are times when people vote for candidate B because they loathe candidate A, not because they like candidate B either.

Clinton was a factor but not the main factor.

M0nica Mon 23-Nov-20 09:18:20

Obama was not a career politician. He came into politics after a career as a lawyer.

Initially, I think Trump entered the political race for publicity, not office. But voters voted for him because he was not Hilary Clinton. She was far too deeply implicated in stories of sleaze around Washington and her business interests. The Democrats could have won with a different candidate - and she did get more votes than Trump, just not as many delegates.

There are times when people vote for candidate B because they loathe candidate A, not because they like candidate B either.

Galaxy Mon 23-Nov-20 07:48:38

That's interesting about wanting Obama to talk openly to those who he ignored, that's how I feel about the opposition in this country.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 23-Nov-20 06:27:49

rosecarmel

Both Trump and Obama clearly had convictions regarding wanting to make a difference- And both have-

Only one seems to integrity

rosecarmel Sun 22-Nov-20 23:50:28

Both Trump and Obama clearly had convictions regarding wanting to make a difference- And both have-

M0nica Sun 22-Nov-20 22:25:21

I have come to the conclusion that those poiticians driven by the best of motives are getting fewer or soon give way under pressure.

This will not change until it becomes impossible for anyone to make politics their career from the time they graduate. Anyone wanting to be an MP should have to put 10 years of deep blue water between leaving university and standing for Parliament, when they do another job entirely a long way from Westminster.

biba70 Sun 22-Nov-20 20:17:37

Monica '' Telling lies is nothing to do with not fulfilling promises. It is all about deliberately, knowing full well their are lying and deceiving, and that they have no intention whatsoever to make good on said promises''

yes, this is what the current Government clearly did. But not all Politicians - some truly do become politicians because they want to make a difference, and mean it.

The example of Obama versus Trump illustrates this point well.

Whitewavemark2 Sun 22-Nov-20 19:04:33

rosecarmel

We aren't privy to meetings that go on behind closed doors-
We know the function of political whips and that press secretaries spin- And that vaguery is common practice-

How often do any of them apologize when they've gotten something wrong?

If they know the truth but choose not to tell the truth?

Most of them will never admit to getting it wrong.

rosecarmel Sun 22-Nov-20 18:58:30

We aren't privy to meetings that go on behind closed doors-
We know the function of political whips and that press secretaries spin- And that vaguery is common practice-

How often do any of them apologize when they've gotten something wrong?

If they know the truth but choose not to tell the truth?

Whitewavemark2 Sun 22-Nov-20 18:54:28

Just ordered Obama’s book, I think he addresses the issue in that. He also talked about it in his interview last week.

rose sorry not to have come back but haven’t been on GN much.

So in a way the question has been answered. I was talking about the lawyers overseeing the election process in the USA - the executive- that is they ensure smooth running of the process, but are not political. Trump asked some Wisconsin lawyers to the WH to try to pursued them to cobble the result, but they refused. So that’s that😀

MaizieD Sun 22-Nov-20 18:44:48

I think that you are unduly cynical, MOnica.

I agree with biba that governments are often constrained in what they set out to achieve, but I do think that all the governments I have lived through have set out in the belief that they are serving the people who elected them and what they do will make the UK a good place.

However, the current government completely bucks this trend. They appear to have no interest whatsoever in serving 'the people'. Johnson's latest startling declaration, in the face of worries about food shortages post 1st Jan 2021, that 'The government has no responsibility for ensuring that the population is fed' demonstrates total uninterest in the the wellbeing of the people they have been elected to serve.

We could also look at their indifference to the fate of the 3 million or so who have fallen through the net of support for those whose jobs and livelihoods have been severely affected by covid restrictions.

And of course, there is their enthusiastic distribution of the nation's money to their friends and donors. Which they appear to be using as an excuse for flagging up future tax increases and cuts to public spending.

But then, we did absolutely know that this lot were liars before they were even elected.

Which really brings us back to the question asked by the OP...

M0nica Sun 22-Nov-20 16:06:00

Sorry biba70 I am with Griselda here. Telling lies is nothing to do with not fulfilling promises. It is all about deliberately, knowing full well their are lying and deceiving, and that they have no intention whatsoever to make good on said promises

That is exactly what we mean and all governments do it - and always have. Sometimes they get away with it sometimes they don't.

We only know about it now because either the current crop of politicians are too stupid to be able to hide them properly (I favour this explanation at the monent) or they do not care whether they are caught lying or not. It is probably a case of both.

biba70 Sun 22-Nov-20 13:17:33

That is a massive cop out Griselda, and I truly do not agree.

Politicians don't always manage to fulfil their promises, for all sorts of reasons. But some lie very deliberately, knowing full well their are lying and deceiving, and that they have no intention whatsoever to make good on said promises. Hugely different.

Griselda Sat 21-Nov-20 14:14:26

Why do e vote for governments that lie ? Because they all do.

rosecarmel Sat 21-Nov-20 13:39:56

Whitewavemark2

😄😄😄 just gone to bed to read. It’s 10 pm!

Enjoy your evening.

Just watching about Trump and the Wisconsin GOP attorneys.

I’m surprised that the executive is getting involved in the election.

The executive is not allowed anywhere near it in the U.K. Isnt that true in USA ?

I don't understand the question- 😊 But would like to-

rosecarmel Sat 21-Nov-20 13:28:41

"But the capacity for individuals to believe the distortions and lies must never be underestimated."

Yes- And our task is addressing that last sentence- Constantly- The language of the narrative is deliberate and used to create false truths- It's how democracy topples-

I can't begin to tell you how much I wish Obama would get out of his own way and talk directly to those he ignored- Openly and honestly, in order to begin to close that chasm of "us and them" and bring us closer to "one"-

Whitewavemark2 Sat 21-Nov-20 12:06:05

Just reading an article about truth and politics.

15 November - Trump has declared that he has won the election.

Quote from Obama

“(democracy) is entering an epistemological crises.......If we do not have the capacity to distinguish what’s true from what’s false, by definition our democracy doesn’t work”

“Our democracies are not only facing a crises in trust, but in knowledge itself, largely because language has become untethered from reality, as we find ourselves in a maelstrom of lies, disinformation, paranoia and conspiracy claims”

The need to fact check so much of what we are told points to this distortion of truth on a daily basis. But the capacity for individuals to believe the distortions and lies must never be underestimated.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 20-Nov-20 21:58:30

😄😄😄 just gone to bed to read. It’s 10 pm!

Enjoy your evening.

Just watching about Trump and the Wisconsin GOP attorneys.

I’m surprised that the executive is getting involved in the election.

The executive is not allowed anywhere near it in the U.K. Isnt that true in USA ?

rosecarmel Fri 20-Nov-20 20:47:20

Ah! Sweet dreams then! 😂

Whitewavemark2 Fri 20-Nov-20 12:31:11

I’ve just had lunch😊

rosecarmel Fri 20-Nov-20 11:16:49

Good morning 😊

Whitewavemark2 Fri 20-Nov-20 10:56:43

rose you are up early😊😊😊

rosecarmel Fri 20-Nov-20 10:41:27

*not = hit 😊

rosecarmel Fri 20-Nov-20 10:40:29

You both not the nail on the head regarding expectation- Expecting they will lie, like everyone else, and expecting them not to-

My husband, God rest, compartmentalized integrity and lies- Ok in personal life but not on the job- I can only imagine the level of mental stamina it took to believe that to be true-