How Can A Government That Spends Billions On Mass Testing Quibble Over Helping The Low Paid?

I think PippaZ the frustrating/infuriating thing is that over the past decade ,despite countless reports of the damage austerity measures have done to some of the most vulnerable members of society, its appears it's a matter of principle for the government to continue! They seem so dismissive of those affected they will continue regardless of whether it makes economic sense. Of course what makes it a harder pill to swallow is how they throw billions at their cronies without challenge!

When this is all just a bad dream ( when) many people will spend like there is no tomorrow because they have not been spending money on overseas trips, clothes, furniture etc. We are finding that those who have kept n employment are doing just that. Houses are selling within a week and it is all crazy spend, spend , spend. Not that attractive and confined to those lucky enough to stay employed but it is certainly helping with the economy.

#KeepTheLifeline: urging the Government to keep the £20 UC uplift. This is a campaign that the Joseph Rowntree Foundation are running. You can read about it here:

tinyurl.com/y6m6wvr8

It talks about the government realising that the social security system was inadequate and providing the uplift. It talks about who will lose and what they will lose if it comes to an end in April. There are links to the evidence they have assembled and to their full report.

There are links to their report showing ... that taking money out of the economy, by cutting the incomes of millions of low-income families in the middle of a recession, would be bad for our economic recovery.

The government must see that we need the sort of investment FOR THE SAKE OF THE WHOLE COUNTRY and yes, I know I am shouting but we simply cannot afford a government, that is always behind the curve, either individually or as a society.

Mozisart

You are so right and I totally agree with. A Universal Basic Income was debated in Parliament back last year in September I believe. When Finland tried it out for two years, they found that people were more willing to work and there was less depression. I believe Canada has also done a trial with similar results.

In all the trials I have read about Mozisart, the only people who didn't work came into the categories I mentioned earlier. They either took up education or training, or, in some cases stayed at home longer than they might have done with small children.

I do seem to remember they did a programme on the Finnish trial and a one of the people was trying to build a business. We are going to need people prepared to do that after this is over.

You are so right and I totally agree with. A Universal Basic Income was debated in Parliament back last year in September I believe. When Finland tried it out for two years, they found that people were more willing to work and there was less depression. I believe Canada has also done a trial with similar results.

Urmstongran

The budget is 3 March. There is speculation that the increase will continue but be gradually tailed off to coincide with cessation by the end of lockdown when people can once again, go out job hunting.

I doubt very much if those currently out of work and receiving benefits will immediately get a job at the end of lockdown which is what you are implying. The govt will say that benefits will cease/be reduced or whatever on such and such a date and everybody can go out and immediately get a job.

This a fine example of Johnson's blue sky, sunlit uplands thinking.

Certainly some businesses, especially bars, restaurants, hairdressers, will be able to start up again, especially if they've been able to hold onto their premises. However, they will likely start with fewer staff until they see how business is progressing and they will do more work "on the floor" than previously when they could afford the staff.

Millie22. I was lucky in that my job coach was lovely and very realistic,a similar experience to growstuff had. I imagine it's down to luck. I think UC engenders fear,if you dont fulfill your commitments the pittance stops. They did stop sanctions during the first wave but dont know if they are now back in place.

Grannyrose15 you asked about hope for the future. I must admit I was quite emotional watching the inauguration yesterday. Yes we need more than words,but the compassion and idealism reduced me to tears. Whatever good he may have achieved with the economy or bringing back soldiers Trump made my skin crawl. As he himself said he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and people would still vote for him. No one expects politicians to be saints but he took it to a new level. Johnson morally is a mini Trump,maybe a better educated one who is slightly better at not publically making vile comments,although there have been some. I think he was just viewed as a bit of a buffoon etc. Seeing photos of them both together you can see his admiration of Trump. It will be interesting to see him and President Biden together. Will he comb his hair and become statesmanlike? Trump was everything Boris wanted to be.
So,maybe there is hope even if its distant. Unfortunately I cant see a UK Biden on the horizon.
I've had a strange year,to put it mildly.
After thirty years working in local government ,a few years as a carer for my dad, then working for a charity I got a part time job in private sector care. Tbh it was an opportunity to work with residents without hours of back breaking personal care which although I have no problem with is tiring in your 50s. Pay,terms of work were rubbish. No sick pay etc. I was fortunate in that I had savings and salary just paid bills etc. I was quite content.
Then the pandemic hit. Being high risk but not shielded the protection offered by working terms and conditions of the public sector became potentially a matter of life and death. The care home I worked in lied,dragged their feet,it was very obvious how little you meant as an employee. I wasnt asking for special treatment,just a risk assessment and a way of being protected in my role,or an alternative role such as admin. Nope. Unions involved etc. Never was resolved. Fortunately I have savings .
As the savings reduced I was entitled to UC. No you couldnt live off it,however frugal you are. My hope was to lie low until Spring when things improve. I knew by then my savings would run out. I think my concern was that UC would force me to take a more hazardous job than already had,or I would be forced due to poverty.
Amazingly an opportunity arose within the civil service which I successfully applied for. Now certainly is not the best time to venture out but fingers crossed. The professionalism I have met was similar to how Biden made me feel. My wellbeing is automatically respected. I start on Monday but they have had covid infections in the office and so are working from home. I'm not sure how it will pan out but I feel strangely not as worried as could be. It's that feeling of being valued as a person. It was really upsetting last year when it hit home that if I had still been working for local government I would have been working from home without question. Working from home was possible with the care home,my qualifications meant I could have helped with training,supervising care staff by zoom,supported activities. They admitted that but said not financially viable. They have since spent half a million improving the home.
A cautionary tale about being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm lucky,I have choices. Millions dont. We are of a generation when education, the welfare system and the workplace were a very different experience. For millions it's broken,and I'm not sure there is a solution any time soon.

growstuff
I have recent experience of UC so I completely understand your comments. The amount they pay is a pittance and I didn't even realise there was an 'uplift' at all that was due to be ended. And as for receiving phone calls about looking for work when you're nearly 60+ or older it's very unsettling. There's very little empathy for your circumstances too.

I have to admit to wishing we had more of a Biden than a Trump and more of those who think like the followers of the first than those who think like the followers of the second and then, and then I remember that things do not happen over night but tend to change direction slowly and then pick up speed.

I put the OP up hoping it was something everyone could discuss, expand on and explain from their point of view but I do understand how overwhelming the situation will be to some and how they can only concentrate on that at the moment.

There may be some hope. The headline in the Waugh Zone (huff post) email last night was "Why A U-Turn On Universal Credit Cuts Could Come Sooner Rather Than". As you imagine I read the post as quickly as I could and I think this is relevant. The detail is here: www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/universal-credit-u-turn-lobby-stratton_uk_60089aedc5b6df63a91c9d02?utm_hp_ref=uk-the-waugh-zone

After the explanation about why the writer thinks their could be a change in the thinking there is this paragraph.

For many worried about losing the £1,000 a year uplift in April, that time is now. With recent research showing how bills for food, heating and data have increased for the working poor, removing that money would have a major impact on the daily lives of the very people Johnson and Sunak had promised “to put our arms around”.

I agree and I hope it helps growstuff to know that while it is not the only thing we talk about on Gransnet it is in our minds and if we could add weight to the change we would.

If you'd asked me that a week ago I would have had to say that I didn't, but having watched the US inauguration I have more hope than I did.

I know it's all happening 'over there', but I think that what happens there influences what happens here, and when people see that hate has lost out, and that it is possible (I hope) for a leader to unite people, I think they will start to demand that here, too. Bluster and lies, and appeals to the lowest instincts of greed and self-interest will be shown for what they are, and maybe we will look to our leaders to unite us, too.

I really hope so.

The way we have handled this crisis has revealed a lot about our society. There are many divisions: old/young, poor/comfortable, north/south, that we have lived with for years and that have now become difficult to ignore. Limitations of the tax system and the NHS have become glaringly obvious. We now have a once in a lifetime opportunity to make changes that benefit us all. I would like to think that we will take that opportunity but have serious doubts. Normally an optimist, surviving through the last 11 months has turned me into a pessimist. How about the rest of you? Do you have hope for the future?

I have said all along that I don't think it will happen, and given the reasons why I think this:

* A Tory government will not want to upset its donors, who benefit from a 'reserve army of labour' who are desperate to work regardless of the pay and conditions.

* It would not be popular with a number of voters (probably particularly Tory voters) who would prefer to see differentials maintained.

* There is a strange (to me) obsession with many people about any money (even from the taxes that we have all paid) only going to those who 'need' it, and a very punitive attitude to what this means.

* If everyone started at a basic level of income, a large number of goods and services would rise in price in order to maintain their scarcity value and associated status.

I know it won't happen any time soon, but the discussion was never personal - the question was about how the government can quibble about removing the 'top-up'. I absolutely support their keeping it in place and would also support an increase.

It is true that Pippa, myself and others were discussing UBI in the abstract, which is all that we could do as it has little chance of happening, but that doesn't mean that I, for one, don't think that individuals matter - of course they do.

I am sorry that the discussion made you feel like a political pawn, as that was definitely not the intention.

I do understand that you are worried though, and think that it is a disgrace that people should feel like that when this country is one of the richest in the world (for now).

PippaZ

Even though work is so difficult now growstuff I agree with Doodledog. Firstly it would help people getting through now with no work available then it we will need to grow the economy very quickly and this could help as it would remain with people while they grew businesses, found new jobs or retrained.

It would be a really good topic for Citizens Assemblies but I doubt this government could contemplate something so democratic.

But let's be realistic! It won't happen! A UBI would cost a fortune and would take months or years to agree. I prefer to be pragmatic and go with something achievable. I wonder if you or Doodledog realise how dire the situation is right now. People getting into debt and losing their homes and not being able to feed themselves need the money now, not some time in the future when new systems are discussed.

It does affect me personally because I know I couldn't live on £74 a week, which is what the employment element of UC is worth. I despair sometimes when I read about aspirational ideas, which won't happen, knowing that I don't have money now. There are millions of people in the same situation or worse off. Quite honestly, such ideas make me feel as much of a political pawn as those people handing out the billion pound contracts to their cronies. In both cases real people don't matter as individuals, just in the abstract.

I'm going to leave the thread you started Pippa because I don't think you really understand what it's like to worry if you can get through to the end of the month.

Even though work is so difficult now growstuff I agree with Doodledog. Firstly it would help people getting through now with no work available then it we will need to grow the economy very quickly and this could help as it would remain with people while they grew businesses, found new jobs or retrained.

It would be a really good topic for Citizens Assemblies but I doubt this government could contemplate something so democratic.

But the figures I've seen suggested for a UBI payment would be about the same as JSA, which is why I said the poorest wouldn't benefit, unless they had another source of income, which they're going to find difficult at the moment.

Even the JobCentre have admitted there aren't any jobs. I've had no pressure at all to find one or even fill in my "journal" to make it look as though I'm looking for a job.

I really can't see it happening now. It would have to be costed first and I seem to remember the Greens backed away when they looked at the details. Then there would be debates etc etc, "leaked" to find out public opinion etc.

This thread was about the £20 UC payment. Like free school meals, it's a sticking plaster but the trouble is that people need the money now.

Nor I, growstuff, but I think that is all the more reason for doing it now, for all the reasons I gave. It will have less of an impact when there are more people in work (whenever that may be). UBI is not meant simply to replace JSA, but to lift everyone into a decent standard of living, and remove the lack of security that so many people live with day to day.

A side-effect might be that rogue employers have to improve their dreadful conditions of employment for staff, including the sub-contracted ones such as delivery drivers. If people have a fallback, they wouldn't feel compelled to work in the manner of the main character of 'Sorry We Missed You'.

Sadly, this is one reason why I can't believe that a Tory government will ever bring it in - their donors have too much to lose.

Doodledog I did qualify my reservations by saying that I don't think it would work at the moment. There really is no work for people to do, so they couldn't earn more. With B** still to make itself felt, I am not optimistic about the future for jobs - not for some time anyway.

We need a major rethink in this country which has seen the extremes of the income distribution move further and further apart in recent years.

Yes, it would give the choices that the better off take for granted to everyone, and society as a whole would benefit from that as well as individuals and families.

Doodledog I won't quote your post Wed 20-Jan-21 16:10:27 but I would have been very happy indeed to have written it. You put your finger on the equalities it could bring.

I think the only thing I add is that it would make the "cushioning" more equal which in turn would offer more opportunity to learn and train, more opportunity to stay with young children if you want to and more to transfer to a job which, while it may not pay as much allows you to offer your skills to your countrymen.

I think the point in the OP was that £20 really isn't much compared with the billions which have been handed out to all sorts of other people, including cronies for dodgy contracts. To me, that £20 really has made a difference.

That was why I wrote it Growstuff.

I really wish that we could edit posts for clarity on here. I so often read my posts after sending and realise that they read very badly, but I need to see them as they appear before that is obvious to me.

Even if there were just a five minute window for editing it would make such a difference. I don't understand why we can't have that option.

I really don't see the advantage. the poorest would be no better off. The only ones who would benefit would be those not claiming JSA/UC now.

Which includes countless people working in the gig economy or on minimum wage. These people would benefit from UBI, and would not risk it being reduced pound for pound if their circumstances improved, so they could try to plan for a better future.

It would also mean that people who have saved for a small pension wouldn't see those savings wiped out by means testing that ensures that they would have the same income if they hadn't saved and claimed pension credit.

At the same time, it would mean that those who do get pension credit wouldn't have it taken from them if they get a stroke of luck and their savings rise a bit above a threshold - they too, could see a realistic possibility of a better life ahead that means testing takes away.

It would remove the 'scrounger' labels from claimants.

It would give people a bit better off than 'the poorest' some hope of improving their situation.

I think that a fair system looks out for everyone, and measures the impact of policies on all of us - not just the people at the very bottom of 'the pile'. Clearly they should be a priority, but not at the disproportionate expense of those just above them in that pile.