A Labour government would have made a mess of covid too.

The trouble is with your theory is that doesnt describe Starmers path to his position in the labour party.

Well said Kamiso

Peasblossom

Yes, I’ll give them. I agreed with much of what was in the manifesto. But when I said the vision, I wasn’t actually referring to that but, the vision of what a Labour government would be like based on the way people were behaving. The idea of what it would be like if these people came into power.

I echo what Casdon posted above.

The Labour Party, as it presented at the last election, was in disarray at best. Extreme views, such as anti-semitism, ran rife and seemed to gaining power. Every day, in the run up to the election, brought some new desperate vote-catching idea until nobody knew what Labour actually stood for. The Leader appeared to have no authority over his party.

People like me, who could see it all slipping away, were treated, well pretty much like you’ve treated me, with sneers and snide remarks “If you were in a reality, a Labour voter”

Yes I was. Never again, if it means putting people like you into power.

Totally agree with Casdon. Keir Starmer is a total waste of space. He was offered a joint cabinet in the early COVID days but obviously didn’t want to take any responsibility for anything at all. Much easier to sit on the sidelines and harp and criticise and try to undermine. Unless of course Starmer has a crystal ball and knew precisely how this would all turn out.

Bigoted hypocrites. The first ones to whine if the economy fell apart and there was no money for the NHS, pensions, social services etc, are the very ones moaning that finances count for nothing.

The Labour Party is dead in the water because it has been taken over by career politicians who studied the theory of politics at university, then joined whichever party was convenient at the time. It’s become a veritable gravy train and a stepping stone to unlimited wealth and nepotism abounds.

Peasblossom Very good posts. Like you I was a Labour voter for most of my voting life but they’ve lost me and many others. We live in a democracy thankfully, and if we don’t like a party we can vote them out. You have hit the nail on the head when you talk of the sneers and snide remarks. The condescending comments. They’ve lost the ordinary working man and for some inexplicable reason they seem incapable of altering course. Unfortunately for them the voting public aren’t made up entirely of the chattering classes and students.

A word of support for Casdon’s post.

I was talking about the loss in votes being related to the lack of faith in the vision being implemented. When the elections took place in 2017 there was a resurgence of belief in Labour, which ebbed away over the years as the confidence in the leadership waned.

Casdon

It is accurate Dinamho, in 2017 Labour had a 40% share of the vote, and 12,877,918 votes.

Apologies - I thought that we're talking about the 2019 election? My mistake. Anyway, the Lib Dems back in 2017 had 7.4% and those two combined exceed the Tories 42.4%.
Even in 2019, the combined Labour and Lib Dems vote was 0.1% higher than that of the Tories.

I have detailed elsewhere the number of times that we have had a true majority government, which, if I remember rightly, was twice. I don't have time now to plough through the various posts where I provided that information.

It is accurate Dinamho, in 2017 Labour had a 40% share of the vote, and 12,877,918 votes.

People like me, who could see it all slipping away, were treated, well pretty much like you’ve treated me, with sneers and snide remarks “If you were in a reality, a Labour voter”

Yes I was. Never again, if it means putting people like you into power.

Who are you addressing there, Peasblossom?

But thanks for your explanation.

Casdon

Okay, you asked for our opinions, here’s mine. Can you not see it’s not the vision that was wrong, it was the failure to convince people that it was remotely deliverable, and the sitting on the fence over Brexit, terrorism, extremism, lack of leadership, failure to manage the party, ineptitude in debate, etc. etc. reinforced that it couldn’t be delivered. The leadership had no credibility, and I mean the shadow cabinet not just Corbyn. The Old Labour war is lost, and millions demonstrated that by not voting for the party. I’ll answer my own question - no you can’t see it, but there it is nonetheless.

There’s no point in engaging in further pointless arguments with the few of you who try in every debate about Labour to take the moral high ground, because you don’t own it - to achieve your vision what counts most is taking voters with you, and it was a catastrophic failure.

I think most of us LP supporters would agree that they failed to get their message. One reason - the attacks in the right wing press about their plans not being costed for example.

I beg to disagree about the shadow cabinet, especially when compared to the actual cabinet that we have now. I don't think that Corby was a good debater - unfortunately he made rules for himself about the questions he was going to ask - relying upon questions from the public- but he didn't descend into the personal comments that Johnson now makes.

Furthermore, your comment that millions demonstrated by not voting for the LP, is not strictly accurate. In the last election, the results from the 3 major parties were as follows:

Tories 13.9 million 43.6%
Labour 10.3 million 32.1%
Lib Dems 3.7 million 11.6%

As per usual we have a minority govt. And please don't tell me about the number of seats the Tories have - we all know it and most of us know that it is a flawed system of voting.

Yes, I’ll give them. I agreed with much of what was in the manifesto. But when I said the vision, I wasn’t actually referring to that but, the vision of what a Labour government would be like based on the way people were behaving. The idea of what it would be like if these people came into power.

I echo what Casdon posted above.

The Labour Party, as it presented at the last election, was in disarray at best. Extreme views, such as anti-semitism, ran rife and seemed to gaining power. Every day, in the run up to the election, brought some new desperate vote-catching idea until nobody knew what Labour actually stood for. The Leader appeared to have no authority over his party.

People like me, who could see it all slipping away, were treated, well pretty much like you’ve treated me, with sneers and snide remarks “If you were in a reality, a Labour voter”

Yes I was. Never again, if it means putting people like you into power.

I actually think those who mock the idea of personality not playing a part arent seeing what is going on at the moment. The failures of the governments covid approach are in part due to Johnsons character. May, Major etc would have done a better job than Johnson because they don't possess the character flaws which are so unsuited to this sort of crisis. Personality/character is actually important as we saw with Trump.

Peasblossom

I could tell you what it was that turned so many previous Labour voters away but you don’t really want to know. You only want to hear what reaffirms your views.

It would just be met with another ‘I don’t believe you”. Whats the point.

Or just maybe you could possibly consider that the attitude of “Dont want to hear you. Don’t care what you think.” was one of the things that alienated voters - and still does.

I for one would certainly like to hear your reasons - but (big question) will you give them?

Peasblossom

I could tell you what it was that turned so many previous Labour voters away but you don’t really want to know. You only want to hear what reaffirms your views.

It would just be met with another ‘I don’t believe you”. Whats the point.

Or just maybe you could possibly consider that the attitude of “Dont want to hear you. Don’t care what you think.” was one of the things that alienated voters - and still does.

Why do you think I keep on asking the bl**dy question? If I didn't want to know the answer I wouldn't ask the question...

I didn't start this thread to argue the toss with people, and I tried very hard not to. I really wanted to know 'reasons' for beliefs not just the beliefs themselves, we've heard them all before on numerous occasions

After all, it was you who said that people didn't like the 'vision'. What was it about 'the vision' that wasn't liked'

Can you not see it’s not the vision that was wrong,

Thank you very much for that response, Casdon. It's fine and factual and I have no reason to argue with it. It was the leadership, not the vision that influenced you.

But there are people on this thread who have asserted that the LP's vision was wrong and who don't seem able or willing to tell us what was 'wrong' about it.

After all, it's the reasons for rejecting the vision, if they are valid ones, that might be very relevant to informing further policy and policy presentation.

Kari4

Whoever was in the hot seat would have had a hard time, BUT when Ireland locked down #1, I wondered why we hadn’t (we followed 10 days later!
I didn’t participate in “eat out to help out” because I thought the virus might also participate!
I bought all my Xmas presents in September because I could see we would need another lockdown soon.
I had Xmas/new year alone (by choice) because I didn’t believe Covid would take a Christmas holiday.
Taking all the above into consideration, why couldn’t Boris see what I could?

I agree with this.

I didn't eat out to help out.
Bought presents early.
Didn't mix at Christmas and the NY.
Stayed close to home.
I have followed rules to the letter.

But not everyone has. It's not the governments (any governments) fault when people break the rules. Too many of our fellow citizens have been stupid and/or selfish. They say it's too complicated, they don't understand the rules, or blame Dominic Cummings.

Okay, you asked for our opinions, here’s mine. Can you not see it’s not the vision that was wrong, it was the failure to convince people that it was remotely deliverable, and the sitting on the fence over Brexit, terrorism, extremism, lack of leadership, failure to manage the party, ineptitude in debate, etc. etc. reinforced that it couldn’t be delivered. The leadership had no credibility, and I mean the shadow cabinet not just Corbyn. The Old Labour war is lost, and millions demonstrated that by not voting for the party. I’ll answer my own question - no you can’t see it, but there it is nonetheless.

There’s no point in engaging in further pointless arguments with the few of you who try in every debate about Labour to take the moral high ground, because you don’t own it - to achieve your vision what counts most is taking voters with you, and it was a catastrophic failure.

Peasblossom:

I could tell you what it was that turned so many previous Labour voters away ...

Then do please tell us. If you were, in reality, a previous Labour voter, what was the reason why you voted for the Conservatives - if that is what you did.

When I said "I don't believe you" you were, it appeared to me, factually wrong. If not then lets hear the evidence. There were so many polls taken at the time you really should be able to back your statements up.

Mollygo Mon 15-Feb-21 12:18:46

As my mother would have said "If ifs and ands were pots and pans there'd be no need for tinkers hands".

What was the relevance of that post to the OP?

Whoever was in the hot seat would have had a hard time, BUT when Ireland locked down #1, I wondered why we hadn’t (we followed 10 days later!
I didn’t participate in “eat out to help out” because I thought the virus might also participate!
I bought all my Xmas presents in September because I could see we would need another lockdown soon.
I had Xmas/new year alone (by choice) because I didn’t believe Covid would take a Christmas holiday.
Taking all the above into consideration, why couldn’t Boris see what I could?

I could tell you what it was that turned so many previous Labour voters away but you don’t really want to know. You only want to hear what reaffirms your views.

It would just be met with another ‘I don’t believe you”. Whats the point.

Or just maybe you could possibly consider that the attitude of “Dont want to hear you. Don’t care what you think.” was one of the things that alienated voters - and still does.

Mollygo

I know ‘*ifs*’ are a waste of time but I wonder what the result would have been if the 27.8% who didn’t bother to vote had actually done so.
If the remain vote had won by the same margin, would leavers have been as bitter?
If the leave margin had been greater, would there still be the same outcry?
If 0.05% votes had not been rejected, presumably because of spoiled ballot papers, would they have been pro remain or pro leave?
There are probably more points of view than voters, all claiming to be right, but we’ll never know.

What has this got to do with the assertion that a Labour government would have made just as much mess of covid as the tory one has?

Still waiting with bated breath to hear details of this Labour 'vision' that people disliked so much...

I know ‘*ifs*’ are a waste of time but I wonder what the result would have been if the 27.8% who didn’t bother to vote had actually done so.
If the remain vote had won by the same margin, would leavers have been as bitter?
If the leave margin had been greater, would there still be the same outcry?
If 0.05% votes had not been rejected, presumably because of spoiled ballot papers, would they have been pro remain or pro leave?
There are probably more points of view than voters, all claiming to be right, but we’ll never know.

Not to menton the 63 MPs who want a date for ending lockdown because they think it shouldn't have happened. They put the economy and profit before lives www.itv.com/news/2021-02-13/covid-lockdown-sceptic-tory-mps-pile-pressure-on-boris-johnson-to-end-all-lockdown-restrictions-by-end-of-april
There wouldn't be such pressure from Labour MPs

I just wish they would stop contradicting each other. What on earth Grant Shapps was playing at the other day?! One or two people speaking on behalf of the Government please.