A Labour government would have made a mess of covid too.

growstuff
Kier Starmer might not have-he has his position to think of, but who knows what other Labour members might do.

Whether or not they would have been able to source PPE would have depended on how long they were in power. The Conservative governments cut, cut and cut again all the public services so there was nothing in the cupboard when they went to look. This did not happen in all countries.

The same with doctors and nurses. They are not running a widget factory and they needed more doctors, nurses and all the staff a decade and more ago.

Conservatives have been moving for years towards an alt-right party such as we can see in some eastern European countries. It isn't something to be proud of that your leader is a born liar. He is renowned for manipulating the truth to get his far-right policies in. He ignores our parliamentary democracy and those who think they will personally come out on top keep backing him.

Gone are the days where at least the best of politicians had the good of the whole community at heart. They may have come at the answers from different directions but they were not the liars or charlatans we now see and nor were their loudest followers people with the basest instincts who never really have an argument other than doing others down. They just ride on the backs of the cult leader in the hope they too come out on top.

We have some very, very nasty people in this country and they are currently in power or supporting that power.

Reading comments of those above who think Johnson did as well as he could, they make no mention of the elephants in the room - the handing out contracts to friends, the mistakes, not listening to the scientists etc. Why won't they at least acknowledge these errors?

PECS

Oh my... what have I missed now growstuff

Google Killing Kittens. I started a thread about it ages OK, but few seemed to be bothered.

Mollygo

growstuff
Kier Starmer might not have-he has his position to think of, but who knows what other Labour members might do.

I doubt it. I don't think they have the right connections. The husband of one of the original founders is married to one of Johnson's senior advisers.

The cabinet have ball messed up big time in so many areas! All the delays, hesitations, poor contract handling, last minute u-turns.. all evidence of truly rubbish leadership!

A good leader , in my opinion, would have placed the pandemic above party politics, and had a cross party "Covid cabinet" for all pandemic decisions.

Who knows? Starmer wanted us to be part of the European vaccine programme which would have been disastrous. As it is we lead the world.

What we need is to look back at everything and appraise all that happened bearing in mind it is always easy to be wise afterwards, with a view to having plans for any future pandemics.

I agree with everything you just posted Pippaz. Johnson is a liar, a chancer, a second rate journalist.

25Avalon

Who knows? Starmer wanted us to be part of the European vaccine programme which would have been disastrous. As it is we lead the world.

What we need is to look back at everything and appraise all that happened bearing in mind it is always easy to be wise afterwards, with a view to having plans for any future pandemics.

We HAD plans for a future pandemic. They were tested with Operation Cygnus in 2016 and found to be wanting, but the report was never made public, nor was it acted upon.

The provision of PPE had been outsourced and when it was finally located much of it was found to be out of date. As has been said by others, there were plenty of British firms already producing PPE who offered to help but were ignored. Instead the government gave out contracts to cronies and donors with no experience of sourcing PPE. One of them was a crisps company, FGS, another was a jeweller.. The consequence that we have have £millions worth of highly priced unuseable PPE sitting goodness knows where (because the government has no idea where much of it is.) It was a huge gamble which didn't really pay off.

The only gamble that has paid off, in this year of horror, was the advance purchase of vaccines (some of it at a high price) We still don't know if this is entirely successful as the government has been merrily letting in mutant strains of the virus from abroad, because they haven't closed our borders and we don't know if the current vaccines will protect against them.

Wanting to be part of the EU vaccine programme was a perfectly logical and reasonable thing to do. It's only hindsight that shows that it wasn't. In most of the rest, Labour has been ahead of the curve.

25Avalon

Who knows? Starmer wanted us to be part of the European vaccine programme which would have been disastrous. As it is we lead the world.

What we need is to look back at everything and appraise all that happened bearing in mind it is always easy to be wise afterwards, with a view to having plans for any future pandemics.

If we look back at everything and appraise all that happened, it's very possible the UK wouldn't have been in such desperate need for a vaccine to work. Even now, it won't work unless the government gets the test, trace and isolate system right and doesn't attempt to lift lockdown too soon.

I need to correct myself. Starmer didn't ever want to be part of the EU vaccine programme.

He had previously said that we should join the EMA. Nothing to do with the vaccine.

Labour would have had a policy based on the existing NHS and public health services. So as has been said PPE sourced from reliable providers. A track and trace system using the existing public health workers (the system that is now doing such excellent vaccination work). There is substantial evidence that not only was the private system flawed the kits issued were faulty. And it cost almost £50 billion. www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/09/uk-government-fails-to-publish-details-of-4bn-covid-contracts-with-private-firms
They would have provided broadband and tablets for all children who needed them and worked with the teaching unions to work out closure and opening dates
They wouldn't have hesitated over feeding poor children or needed a footballer to shame them into it.
Starmer is now calling for a Clement Attlee system similar to the one used to rebuild the country after WW2 for recontruction after the pandemic. Unfortunately I think he's wasting his breath.

I can bear out part of what you have suggested trisher, Wales has a Labour Government, and has used Public Health Wales and the NHS to deliver Test and Trace, which is working much better than in England. They had no control over PPE because it was centrally purchased and distributed from the UK Government.
Education is also devolved, but there have been similar issues with lack of computers for children without them at home as in England. There is a weekly payment per week during lockdown for lunches for children who are entitled to free school meals.

While I’d never suggest that Boris has covered himself with glory, given how Corbyn dithered and sat on the fence over Brexit, which he’d had plenty of time to think about, I somehow doubt that he’d have been brilliantly decisive when thrown in the deep end with COVID.

It wouldn’t have been Jeremy Corbyn, he had already announced he was standing down after the European elections in 2019. Keir Starmer became leader in April.

Casdon that's interesting. I think I heard on the radio that they are ahead in vaccinating as well.

i think we should have a national govt, of all the best talents, for the duration of this emergency.
i thought so in march last year.
the nearest we got was them taking up tony blair's idea of spreading the vaccine more thinly, more quickly.
though i'm sure that was a co-incidence, of course.

A few weeks ago Wales had the highest rate in the U.K.

Casdon

It wouldn’t have been Jeremy Corbyn, he had already announced he was standing down after the European elections in 2019. Keir Starmer became leader in April.

Corbyn fought the GE in 2019 as leader. He was going to be the PM if Labour won and was the main reason they lost so badly. It was the reason I could not bring myself to vote Labout and I clearly wasn't the only one.

No, you definitely weren’t the only one Mamadoit. I’ve found it’s difficult to get away with saying that on Gransnet though without being piled on by Corbynistas.

Boris came into power because we voted to come out of Europe and that is what he wanted to do.. COVID-19 came almost out of nowhere, we had no experience of it. Yes Boris made mistakes, but who had experience of this pandemic? No-one, it was a case of learning on the job. We can't say whether anyone else would have done better or worse!

As a signed up Corbynista at least I don't have on my conscience the huge amount of money this government has "spaffed" not up a wall but on ther mates. Money which mght have given children a meal, or a tablet or broadband. Or given NHS workers the pay rise they deserve. The deaths might have happened under any government the disgusting financial shenanigans are pure Tory.

Agree Marmardoit. It was such a shame that he didn’t recognise how disliked he was by a large proportion of the voters. If he’d stepped aside I think Labour would have had a much better chance - we might have lost but still have had enough seats to have some sort of influence, whereas now we have none. He could still have had a massive influence in the party but not up front. I know SO many people who didn’t vote labour because of him. I know he was principled and great and done down by the media and all that but you can’t make people like you if they don’t. And unfortunately/sadly we live in a world where people vote - often - for who they like rather than the policies. For some reason a lot liked Johnson. They thought he was ‘fun’, ‘a character’, and yes of course there was ‘get Brexit done’ ?. IMHO JC lost us the election as much as BJ won it. Just on personality.

Doesn’t NZ have a Labour government? You couldn't dispute they’ve done a better job of COVID than our incompetents.

WW010

MaizieD - they keep saying it because it’s the only defence they can muster. I’ve been driven to despair by people who, when you say how bad BJ is will only reply - but what about Corbyn then. It’s the only defence they have.

Those who hitch a ride with BJ and his ilk, i.e., dishonest and unscrupulous people, will hang on in there because they they truly believe in their cults messiah teachings.

Looking at the US yesterday. You could ask just what do these people have to do to open the eyes of those who follow them. The answer appears, now and in history, it really doesn't matter what they do as long as their followers believe it will make them top dog and never mind the rest of the population.