A Labour government would have made a mess of covid too.

Peasblossom posts "I was a Labour voter for most of my voting life but they’ve lost me and many others. We live in a democracy thankfully, and if we don’t like a party we can vote them out"

But do we live in a democracy? In most constituencies there are only two parties who could possibly win, so most voters, especially those who might prefer a different party, feel forced to chose the one they see as the lesser of two evils.

If you are a socialist living in a LibDem/Tory marginal you might decide to vote LibDem, but if you are in a Labour/Tory marginal constituency they you must know that if you don't vote Labour you are likely to help the Tories, which I assume is not what you want.

It is a travesty of democracy.

Starmer was not offered a joint cabinet in the early Covid days. In April 2020 he’s reported to have said he wouldn’t rule it out. Johnson never offered this.

The Labour Party is dead in the water because it has been taken over by career politicians who studied the theory of politics at university, then joined whichever party was convenient at the time. It’s become a veritable gravy train and a stepping stone to unlimited wealth and nepotism abounds.
Hang on for every Labour MP who fits this description I could find you at least 2 Conservatives. Not to mention the fact that this government is now not only filling its own pockets but those of their friends,relatives and spouses. There is no evidence whatsoever that any Labour MP would do such a thing.

As for those posting about how awful the LP was how they hadn't costed anything, couldn't deliver the policies and couldn't be trusted with the economy. Well I hope you accept responsibility for the terrible gap between rich and poor in this country which is getting wider, for the underpaid NHS and care workers who weren't worthy of a pay rise, the millions of children living in poverty, the thousands of families relying on foodbanks, and all those forced to live in B&B accommodation because no one is building council houses. Personally I couldn't live with myself if I thought I had contributed to such a shit show by imagining that LP policies were somehow irrelevant in today's world.

I agree with you trisher and I also couldn't live with myself. I think people have or are being far too idealistic about what they think the conservative party do wrt the vulnerable. Unfortunately the reality is somewhat remarkably different and not for the better and it has been going on for a decade now.

So. Another question to all you former Labour voters.

What have the tories done for the working man?

trisher you are not in a position to assume the moral high ground. It didn’t work. There are no votes to be gained by rowing against the tide of public opinion, which is swayed more by the perception of competence and ability to deliver than it is by visions and policies.

The people who have been responding to this post share the wish for a fairer society, we wouldn’t be Labour voters by inclination if we didn’t, but by trying to imply that by not voting for what we felt was a blatantly incompetent administration we are morally bankrupt is not helping at all, in fact it alienates people further -and that is not the way to rebuild a party that’s fit to rule. I will shut up now.

Are we talking about those same expenses fiddling Labour MPs? I don’t doubt there were plenty of snouts from all parties snuffling in the trough but it’s fact there were more Labour MP’s.

varian I didn’t post that quote. Wrong person.

I’m afraid trisher that you have contributed to it by espousing the attitudes that have kept Labour out of Government. That is your choice. To be “right” rather than achieve what you have listed.

And that of all those who have alienated the people who would have voted Labour.

Can you live with that?

tickingbird

Are we talking about those same expenses fiddling Labour MPs? I don’t doubt there were plenty of snouts from all parties snuffling in the trough but it’s fact there were more Labour MP’s.

Sorry?

Do you have evidence to support this 'fact'?

I wonder if Labour would have sourced PPE by appointing companies who had made large donations to their party - not that there are many large companies and wealthy individuals who make donations to the Labour Party.

There is really no point speculating how well or badly Corbyn would have done if Labour had won - it's an unknown quantity. But we do know what has happened under Johnson and his party.

This thread has moved a great deal. The original OP and the comments it talks about are often made by people who would never think of voting for any government but a Conservative one. "'A Labour government would have made a mess of Covid too" is no answer to anything. It really has no meaning concerning what this government is doing and no way of proving it as stated fact and there is certainly a counter-argument to it.

It then moved on to another question when it was said that "Their vision of society was not what the majority of electors wanted." It's difficult to talk on behalf of others without being able to back it up by referring to data but this begged the question "what is your vision of society".

Casdon came up with an interesting answer.

Can you not see it’s not the vision that was wrong, it was the failure to convince people that it was remotely deliverable, and the sitting on the fence over Brexit, terrorism, extremism, lack of leadership, failure to manage the party, ineptitude in debate, etc. etc. reinforced that it couldn’t be delivered. The leadership had no credibility, and I mean the shadow cabinet not just Corbyn. The Old Labour war is lost, and millions demonstrated that by not voting for the party.

I think it is possible to see how much this could have influenced people. I would agree that a change is needed if the Labour Party is to attract votes once again.

However, during this time we saw a similar change in journalism here as was seen in America, where the political journalist, waiting on his phone for the latest update from the Tory party became the face of a corrupt government. The media and the politicians seem to have become chimaeras; blending together to produce one entity that could be either. Even the BBC, who we could once depend upon now have to bring on the person who believes the moon is made of blue cheese if some other group declares it's made of rocks and metals. Journalism and the truth seem to have parted company so I would ask how much of the failure was a reality and how much contrived?"

Like many others on here I feel our democracy is under threat. Does that tell me why people say "Labour would have made a mess of Covid"? No. But we seem to have stopped talking about that some time ago.

What did celebrities think of Labour

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc3vTUzGMYw

Like the young if people weren't swayed by negative media

Crikey that clip was a perfect example of the failure of message. Russel Brand, how to reach the Red Wall constituencies, not.

if you all care about the society you live in and fairness, would you all be willing to write to your MPs for me wrt to those with LD?

www.learningdisabilityengland.org.uk/news/stop-the-postcode-lottery-the-lives-of-all-people-with-learning-disabilities-have-equal-value/?fbclid=IwAR00WWbDNRUCCqZ0tK6puA8f_hWtxKrZ9t2-6X7W_XGy123Iu4AnErHI6O4

Because my conservative MP is awful and we had a very good MP (also conservative) in my daughter's constituency but this cohort got rid of him and now we have a shiny suit, yes man. It isn't what I wanted for any of us

www.learningdisabilityengland.org.uk/news/stop-the-postcode-lottery-the-lives-of-all-people-with-learning-disabilities-have-equal-value/?fbclid=IwAR00WWbDNRUCCqZ0tK6puA8f_hWtxKrZ9t2-6X7W_XGy123Iu4AnErHI6O4

sorry my daughter elbowed me and it posted the link on the end aswell and posted

I am sorry if I misquoted you Peaseblossom but you have said you wanted a Labour government , just not a Corbyn-led Labour government, so I think that my comment still stands.

With our undemocratic FPTP voting system, what does a voter like you do?

MaizieD Sorry?

Do you have evidence to support this 'fact'?

It is out there. Feel free to look; it won’t take long.

Barbara Follett ex Labour MP had the largest dubious expenses and had to pay back over £42,000. Large amounts were claimed for rent on a London flat when she already owned another flat in London. The commute from her house to London was only 30 mins but she still claimed large amounts often invoiced from her husband, Ken Follet’s, company. You naively believe all greed resides within the Tory party?

Bringing in Jeremy Corbyn is an irrelevance. After the first few weeks he had nothing to do with Labour's response to the pandemic.
I'm not a Labour supporter but I'm another one of Peasblossom's 'one in hundred thousand' who knows who the shadow chancellor and health secretary are (I found that remark a bit patronising).
If we had had a Labour government for the last 10 years the NHS would almost certainly have been in a better position to cope, the 2016 plan to prepare for a future pandemic would probably have received proper attention, cronyism would have been less blatant, fewer people would have been living in poverty. All this and the UK might not have had the highest death rate per thousand in Europe. All this and tory supporters on this thread think an appropriate response is to make jokes about Jeremy Corbyn.

Yet again I am glad I am in Scotland.

tickingbird

MaizieD Sorry?

Do you have evidence to support this 'fact'?

It is out there. Feel free to look; it won’t take long.

Barbara Follett ex Labour MP had the largest dubious expenses and had to pay back over £42,000. Large amounts were claimed for rent on a London flat when she already owned another flat in London. The commute from her house to London was only 30 mins but she still claimed large amounts often invoiced from her husband, Ken Follet’s, company. You naively believe all greed resides within the Tory party?

I could post equal amounts of money defrauded by Conservatives. But I'm not playing tit-for-tat. What I did find interesting when I looked at this is the fact that peers charged with fraud and convicted were suspended for varying periods but continue to sit in the Lords. MPs convicted of criminal acts have all gone.

Agree peasblosswom.

You were warned the NHS is being sold off

m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10217603121570193&id=1242872101&set=gm.856969615160353&source=48&ref=m_notif¬if_t=group_activity

You can write to your MP to stop this.

And we don't want wars Peace

www.instagram.com/tv/CLURuXIonZe/?igshid=z8143jtu0elf

Starmer has hired Mandelson to make the party popular haha

Remember Mandelson said I try every day by any small way to Stop Corbyn becoming PM whether by email phone call or convening a meeting.

Remember centrists didn't win in 2010 or 2015 They could have won in 2017 but sabotaged the party.

According to the independent fact checking organisation fullfact, it’s misleading to claim the Lib Dems refused to support an end to NHS privatisation

fullfact.org/health/liberal-democrat-nhs-privatisation/

Can I ask those who support the views of theLabour party did you vote Labour in 2017 ? If so what changed so much in 2 years you felt the party no longer deserved support?
I fully understand those who wanted Brexit going for Boris &Co but you cannot draw from this the conclusion that all LP policies were wrong.