A Labour government would have made a mess of covid too.

Casdon

I agree with you GranyGravy13. There has always been infighting in the Labour Party, as there obviously is in any party. What’s it is failing to do now is to meet in the middle.

It’s sad it’s come to this, but I believe that it’s terminal now. The electorate will never vote again for a 70s style renaissance of old Labour. A socialist government with Corbyn at the helm would have been disastrous, and I’m saying that as a Labour supporter, for all the reasons that have already been highlighted. Sabotage no doubt played a part, as it always does, but that wasn’t the only reason. Ultimately it doesn’t matter what influences people, because what counts is the ballot. The reality is that this country is fundamentally not left wing, it’s conservative (with a small ‘c’). That doesn’t mean Tory, with the right leadership and media management a moderate Labour agenda has just as much chance of success.

I think Starmer is much more astute than the left of his own party gives him credit for. Whilst the electorate believes that the far left will prevail they won’t vote Labour, unfortunately for the middle ground voters it’s as simple as that. He has to tackle the endemic issues, and that’s his priority. This forum is dominated by people who support the far left on the political debates, and to be honest it comes across a a microcosm of what’s happening in the party. Sometimes the only way to reach a position of electability is to compromise your ideals for an achievable outcome.

I totally agree, I should think that most people do, both on the forum and in the country.??????

This question is a bit like asking “when did you stop beating your wife?” It makes the assumption that the Conservative Government has made “a mess of covid”. I don’t think it is possible to assess how well or badly a Labour Government would have managed. The LP has experienced problems and has a minority of MP’s at the moment so I think they would have found it difficult. On the other hand they may have risen to the occasion. Who knows?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/17/progressive-alliance-defeat-conservatives-election?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

A link to the article Iam64 mentioned.

PippaZ lots of information out there if you care to look.

GrannyGravy13

5.18% of Covid infections over 11 weeks commencing 9th July 2020 were attributed to hospitality staff/consumers. (Source Morning Advertiser)

So what percentage of time was spent in hospitality as opposed to say, any other place of work or home. You are lacking the detail to make your point, I'm afraid. Without it it's just a figure that tells us very little.

Casdon

I agree with you GranyGravy13. There has always been infighting in the Labour Party, as there obviously is in any party. What’s it is failing to do now is to meet in the middle.

It’s sad it’s come to this, but I believe that it’s terminal now. The electorate will never vote again for a 70s style renaissance of old Labour. A socialist government with Corbyn at the helm would have been disastrous, and I’m saying that as a Labour supporter, for all the reasons that have already been highlighted. Sabotage no doubt played a part, as it always does, but that wasn’t the only reason. Ultimately it doesn’t matter what influences people, because what counts is the ballot. The reality is that this country is fundamentally not left wing, it’s conservative (with a small ‘c’). That doesn’t mean Tory, with the right leadership and media management a moderate Labour agenda has just as much chance of success.

I think Starmer is much more astute than the left of his own party gives him credit for. Whilst the electorate believes that the far left will prevail they won’t vote Labour, unfortunately for the middle ground voters it’s as simple as that. He has to tackle the endemic issues, and that’s his priority. This forum is dominated by people who support the far left on the political debates, and to be honest it comes across a a microcosm of what’s happening in the party. Sometimes the only way to reach a position of electability is to compromise your ideals for an achievable outcome.

The Guardian has an article today, suggesting the only way to stop the Conservatives winning future elections is a centre left alliance. I agree with Casdon that a small number of Corbyn/momentum supporters tend to dominate these discussions on gransnet.
This country will never elect a PM they see as ‘extreme left’. Yes it’s dispiriting they chose a Conservative government at the last 4 elections but it’s reality.
Boundary changes and the political mood in Scotland mean labour is unlikely to win the next election.
With FPTP how can that change?

Strange GG13 the figures reported after Eat Out were higher than that. And the economic benefit was negligible. news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-eat-out-to-help-out-accelerated-second-wave-of-covid-19-study-says-12118285

trisher Corbyn ran a campaign from his home trying to get
expelled members back into the party. Remember Liverpool

Anniebach

trisher Corbyn voted against the whip 428 times when labour was in power , hardly United

The Labour Party is far more than the Parliamentary Labour Party and some of those votes would certainly have been supported by party members and even the wider electorate. Remember somethng called the Iraq war?

5.18% of Covid infections over 11 weeks commencing 9th July 2020 were attributed to hospitality staff/consumers. (Source Morning Advertiser)

trisher

For some places of work are restaurants and bars.

I would of thought that was factored in!

GrannyGravy13

^Eat out and kill a few more^ ? Having just looked at various websites there were more infections on public transport, home settings, places of work and supermarkets than in hospitality settings PippaZ

So you don't think they rose in the hospitality industry at that time? Possibly pro rata to the numbers going there? Just as the higher number living at home () would produce a higher number catching the virus at home and the higher numeber of people working in general would produce a higher number catching it there?

I'm not sure your post tells us anything statistically, which is what you seem to be aiming at.

grandmajet

The main reasons emerging for the high Covid deaths in the uk, particularly england, are our high, mobile population density, our elderly population ( partly due to our excellent health care), diversity of ethnic groups, obesity - we are the most obese country in Western Europe, and the fact that we are historically a major travel hub. In the first three months of 2020 nearly 24 million people travelled into the uk. About 20% were passing through but many of the rest were returning uk citizens. This was at a time when Covid was beginning to be seen as a major threat, but it’s full impact was not yet understood. Should we have stopped our returning citizens at that time?
Hindsight is wonderful. A gift to the opposition.

Those may be the reasons why we have a possibility of a higher number of deaths and it is true we see a correlation between your descriptor and death. But always remember one of the first facts of statistics; correlation is not causation.

These people had a greater propensity for death but the fact that it happened was because the government did not deal with the actual problems of the virus invading the country. Other countries, with similar profiles, have not had the same high numbers.

It is too easy to blame the people who died for being from an ethnic minority, or overweight, or simply old. But had they been kept out of the path of the virus they would not have died. People in poorer countries die of things we survive all the time. We survive because we can make our environment and our lives safe and it is a governments job to make that happen.

Australia stopped its returning citizens and has so far killed fewer than our government has.

Your hindsight is no different from anyone else's - opposition or government, they are both looking at the moment and backwards. Hindsight is wonderful is a valueless phrase. After a year it is bound to come into our thinking. But the government were told at the time and they chose what they chose. They have generally done a very poor job only to be rescued by the very public services they would destroy.

For some places of work are restaurants and bars.

Eat out and kill a few more ? Having just looked at various websites there were more infections on public transport, home settings, places of work and supermarkets than in hospitality settings PippaZ

trisher Corbyn voted against the whip 428 times when labour was in power , hardly United

GrannyGravy13

trisher the Labour Party and its supporters are very good at blaming all and sundry.

There is a growing movement amongst Industry/businesses to open up the UK especially once the the elderly and CEV have had their vaccines, these MP’s are mirroring those views.

Of course there is GrannyGravy13 but your really wouldn't expect industry/businesses to be saying anything different. Surely it is up to the government, any government, to balance the needs of all it's people.

I would say it is quite easy to show that bowing to the past demands of industry/businesses is why we have repeated waves followed - sadly not foreseen by the government apparently - by repeated lock downs. It was to appease business that people were encouraged by "Eat out and kill a few more". Business needs looking after, of course it does but a few more brain cells in use when deciding what fulfils that need would help. Difficult when you can only chose your cabinet from stauch Johnsonites/Brexiteers, I know.

casdon totally agree ?

We can't know for sure, but I was looking forward to having a PM with no (or very little) financial interests in making policy, and a genuine belief in levelling up.

grandmajet I agree with your post........none of us are in possession of a retrospectoscope

I agree with you GranyGravy13. There has always been infighting in the Labour Party, as there obviously is in any party. What’s it is failing to do now is to meet in the middle.

It’s sad it’s come to this, but I believe that it’s terminal now. The electorate will never vote again for a 70s style renaissance of old Labour. A socialist government with Corbyn at the helm would have been disastrous, and I’m saying that as a Labour supporter, for all the reasons that have already been highlighted. Sabotage no doubt played a part, as it always does, but that wasn’t the only reason. Ultimately it doesn’t matter what influences people, because what counts is the ballot. The reality is that this country is fundamentally not left wing, it’s conservative (with a small ‘c’). That doesn’t mean Tory, with the right leadership and media management a moderate Labour agenda has just as much chance of success.

I think Starmer is much more astute than the left of his own party gives him credit for. Whilst the electorate believes that the far left will prevail they won’t vote Labour, unfortunately for the middle ground voters it’s as simple as that. He has to tackle the endemic issues, and that’s his priority. This forum is dominated by people who support the far left on the political debates, and to be honest it comes across a a microcosm of what’s happening in the party. Sometimes the only way to reach a position of electability is to compromise your ideals for an achievable outcome.

trisher the Labour Party and its supporters are very good at blaming all and sundry.

There is a growing movement amongst Industry/businesses to open up the UK especially once the the elderly and CEV have had their vaccines, these MP’s are mirroring those views.

The main reasons emerging for the high Covid deaths in the uk, particularly england, are our high, mobile population density, our elderly population ( partly due to our excellent health care), diversity of ethnic groups, obesity - we are the most obese country in Western Europe, and the fact that we are historically a major travel hub. In the first three months of 2020 nearly 24 million people travelled into the uk. About 20% were passing through but many of the rest were returning uk citizens. This was at a time when Covid was beginning to be seen as a major threat, but it’s full impact was not yet understood. Should we have stopped our returning citizens at that time?
Hindsight is wonderful. A gift to the opposition.

GrannyGravy13

trisher the LP does not come over as a unified party, so much infighting. They are not even a credible opposition (down in the polls and behind Conservatives)

The media does play a part but the LP does have to look to itself as opposed to blaming everyone/everything else.

63 Conservative MPs are currently demanding Boris abandon lock down and open things up. And this is a united party?????

Good post, Pippa ?