Where are all the Statesmen/Great leaders?

Former of course

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/feb/07/it-took-on-a-life-of-its-own-the-story-behind-julia-gillards-misogyny-speech?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

This article details the appalling things said about Julia Gillard ( firmer PM of Australia) .It would never have happened to a man. Neither would a male leader who was childless have that fact commented on by a political opponent. ( although of course Theresa May suffered that from one of her own female colleagues)

That was a much more dignified response than I could have managed Alegrias. I think it's the lack of originality that grates with me most, for gods sake get a new joke. Its like being trapped in an episode of Bless this House or something.

suziewoozie

Alegrias crossed posts - yours is better ?

Not too rabid?

And henceforth the wheat sorts itself from the chaff as the most rabid and self defeating come along and claim superiority because they can't stand being disagreed with.

Is there an epithet for the intrinsic dislike of stupid people? Oh yeah, misanthrope...

Alegrias crossed posts - yours is better ?

Galaxy

I agree and being told how we should approach challenging this is interesting to say the least.

Exactly - if there were no sex ( or ethnic ) differentiation in how politicians appearances are referred to, I could ( maybe) see it as just lazy, unkind behaviour but it’s women and even more so black women who are targeted in this way. And yes I believe it’s rooted in misogyny and racism (whether conscious or unconscious).

NellG I’m going to continue with this conversation because I think its relevant to the discussion about leadership, especially women leaders.

Firstly, please notice that I never called you a misogynist, I called people who use the WJK thing have a misogynistic streak. You can call Boris Johnson a shambolic twat and I might or might not agree with you. But neither of those descriptions are about him being a male person, just a bad politician, so no, you wouldn’t be a misandrist if you used them. However I can’t think of a single instance in which a male politician has been called “screechy” or “strident”. They are words that are used only in relation to women and their use undermines the seriousness of the person you are talking about.

I think that the people who use the WJK thing think its funny because it refers to NS’s appearance. That may or may not be true, but they don’t use it because WJK irritates them, they use it because he’s a daft wee laddie you can poke fun at. And the fact that he’s a woman in man’s (boy’s?) clothing reinforces the dislike for a woman in political office, whether they think of it or not. For the same reason you don’t seem to think” Screechy” is sexist, they don’t think WJK is demeaning to women. And God, it’s so old…..

Similarly, I’m so over engaging with people to tell them how their attitudes are ante-diluvian and to stop characterising female politicians by gender-specific tropes. My beliefs are well shored up, thanks. Yes, maybe I’d have won you over by going into the details of how people treat male and female politicians differently and asking you to consider how you are thinking about that. But if you need telling about that, then an internet forum discussion isn’t going to make much difference.

Sorting out the issues of that council cant be down to one person, from what I understand the issues are widespread and systemic and will take a long time to resolve, hopefully via the ballot box.
I think she demonstrated skills in responding to aggression.

libra10

Jackie Weaver definitely showed leadership qualities, within the Handforth Council meeting, which went viral.

She calmly stood her ground, when being harassed and bullied by the males at the meeting.

What a woman!

Jackie Weaver plainly and obviously failed to do the job she had been given which was to sort out Handsworth Parish Council. She used an easy way out which admittedly was very amusing on Zoom. But the problems remain. Another parish council meeting ended acrimoniously yesterday. So was it really Well Done Jackie Weaver? (she wasn't on this one).

Jackie Weaver definitely showed leadership qualities, within the Handforth Council meeting, which went viral.

She calmly stood her ground, when being harassed and bullied by the males at the meeting.

What a woman!

I agree and being told how we should approach challenging this is interesting to say the least.

I am really strict with myself about not commenting on the personal physical appearance of any politician. What matters is their behaviour and policies. I think the reference to NS being made on here ( whether in full or as an acronym) is dreadful and demeans . anyone who uses it. And yes it’s true that women in the public eye and politicians especially suffer from comments like this. We should be better than that. As for AM my understanding about Mutti is that it’s about her systems as mother of the nation not her appearance.

I take your point Alegrias and understand what you're saying. In my case, let me assure you that I am just as "observational" about males. If I'm going to be offensive I'm happy to be evenhanded. Am I a misandrist for calling Boris Johnson a shambolic twat? Maybe. Most of the time I just dislike stupid, irresponsible people - is there an epithet for that?

I think you might be over thinking people's motives here. Yes the use of WJK is without doubt an insult to NS - however I'd argue that the people dishing it out have employed the thought process to say it because it refers to a woman dressing up as a man in order to be something she's not. I'd suggest it's more because she irritates them, they dislike her and are drawing a parallel with a character they feel it's legitimate to be irritated by. Their lack of articulation about it might well be part of the great white patriarchy, but it's more of an artefact of it than a machiavellian manipulation to undermine women in politics. Yesterday I referred to Dominic Raab as reminding me of Plug, a Beano character - I admit it's lazy as a political argument, but it quickly illustrated my observation that the man is hardly an intellectual giant.

Don't get me wrong, women are undermined in politics all the time, and often in the way that you cite. As you say, it was ever thus and ever will be. However I think better results come from asking people like me if they have considered that their comments might be based in some un-excavated misogyny, rather than assuming it is and instantly alienating them in order to shore up your own beliefs. Then we can have a discussion and 'I' might change my view and you may have made progress in garnering greater respect for women in politics.

I think there is also a nostalgia about past leaders, particularly Churchill for obvious reasons, that just doesnt reflect reality. There is a lot of rose tinted glasses when looking back.

Churchull was never regarded as the great leader he has become since his death. He was hated by the working class. Terms for him included "turncoat" because he changed parties and some that are unrepeatable.
I like Nicola Sturgeon, Jacinda Ardern, Angela Merkel. It's widely believed that Kamala Harris will be running the White House from behind the scenes that will be interesting.

I love Janet Godleys take off of NS. Really funny and I think probably what she’s really thinking.

Calendergirl
Yes, I agree, I can’t see Margaret messing about with any of that nonsense.

I’m not Scottish, I don’t agree with her politics, most of my friends look at me in horror, but I quite like Nicola.

There are insults that are only used against women leaders, often dressed up as "observations". It has been ever thus. The WJK is particularly damaging because it refers to a woman dressed up as a man trying to pass herself off as something she's not, and failing.

Whether the people who use these terms support a politician's politics or not, they are undermining the role of women in politics and I will call them out for it if ever I hear it. Just because someone thinks it funny to use misogynistic insults, doesn't make the person they are talking about a bad leader.

I hadnt heard the comments about Ardern, Alegrias, just looked up the incident. I did enjoy reading about the coordinated response to those statements from the 'witches'.

Not an insult, an observation. I personally don't call her anything other than Nicola Sturgeon. I do find her screechy. Disagreeing with some of you does not make me a misogynist, though if it pleases some of you to think that, feel free, it wont make it true. Equally as it's a personal observation I don't need to prove it by trawling the internet trying to find video evidence so that I can say tomato and you can say tomato. I don't suppose Nicola Sturgeon will give a damn either way, she's clearly happy with who she is.

Perhaps I should have been clearer, the people known to me who do call her WJK support her politics and party, obviously not her as a woman and their misogyny is not my responsibility. The point that I was making, in line with the OP, is that I cannot agree that she is a born leader or stateswoman. People calling her WJK, yet still supporting the party is a reflection of the fact that many don't see her that way - she doesn't have the persona or political acumen to have transcended petty insults and commanded respect.

Merkel has, Ardern has - they may well garner insults, but people are more inclined to side with them over it than join in the sniggering.

I think accents have much to do with criticism of party leaders, Nicola Sturgon, Gordon Brown, Neil Kinnock

I do wish Boris would stop that damn silly elbow bumping every time he meets a member of the NHS or the public.

Just isn’t necessary, although he must think it makes him more ‘one of us’.

Cannot imagine Margaret Thatcher doing it. I suppose she might have tapped you with her handbag.

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Hear hear Galaxy. Nobody will be surprised to see me leap to the defence of NS.

If anyone would be able to post a link of her being strident and screechy I'd like to see it. That's clearly an insult that's used because she is a woman who doesn't know her place. Like Merkel being called mutti because she's not glamorous. Or the Australian reporter who said Ardern needed to be backhanded.

And her supporters don't call her the Krankie thing, only people with no imagination and a misogynistic streak do that. We tend to call her Nicola. Or First Minister, which is what she is after all.

I’ve recently read a MN thread about NS, where a lot of Scots say they don’t like her at all. As someone put it, she’s a case of Marmite - love her or really dislike her.