Heartless Britain - will attitudes ever change?

solipsism is a prerequisite of any politician of all political parties!

As you may not have picked up, in my post of Sun 28-Feb-21 10:10:54 GrannyGravy, that I not only think Conservatism cruel, I also think it undemocratic and needing both cruelty and heartlessness to survive.

I will fight against it on that basis particularly when we have seen what extreme conservatism tried, and is still trying to do, in America. If it can happen there I am concerned about it happening here and I do not want that for my country.

As we are still just about a democracy so you too will be able to vote for what you want. I certainly did not intend it to be "playground politics", a phrase which is quick to the lips of those who support the Conservatives, whose weaknesses is its solipsism.

and to make some of the population feel good about themselves by ridiculing others

PippaZ but it’s ok for you and others to ridicule Conservatives and employers who you know nothing about, nor do you know the internal affairs of their companies /businesses

I can see where you are coming from MOnica, but to tar all those out of workas lazy and sponging - which we do constantly hear - simply doesn't help us put the economy on track and it seems that the only positive point for doing this is to sell more copies of some subversive newspapers and make some of the population feel good about themselves by ridiculing others. I'm afraid I can only agree with the OP.

PippaZ

welbeck

they tend to get rid of the ones who cost them more, ie the older ones/ been there longest/ know more/ more able. IMO.

Goodness me Welbeck, you can't talk about reality to a Conservative. It's takes away their chance to be cruel an nasty to someone.

But I do agree and I expect many people know that this will often be the truth.

I am a Conservative

I am also an employer and I can say that I have never been cruel or nasty to any employee nor will I in the future.

Lumping all Conservatives together as heartless is playground politics.

The majority of job losses are through redundancy, and when companies are reorganising and whole sections of the business are being cutout, there is no selection of who to make redundant. Just whole sites are shut down and everyone is jobless.

I do wonder whether those in this survey somehow did not 'see' mass redundancies and when asking the question thought only in terms of an individual given the sack, where no one else was. In which case, yes, there is a high possibility that they were sacked for incompetence.

welbeck

they tend to get rid of the ones who cost them more, ie the older ones/ been there longest/ know more/ more able. IMO.

Goodness me Welbeck, you can't talk about reality to a Conservative. It's takes away their chance to be cruel an nasty to someone.

But I do agree and I expect many people know that this will often be the truth.

GrannyRose15

Dinahmo

GrannyRose If you were running a small business at the start of the lock downs and you had two employees - one highly skilled and one a junior - which one would you get rid of? Given that it's your business and you could manage the work yourself with the aid of the junior, I suspect it would be the highly skilled one. Thereby saving yourself enough money to maybe get you through.

Perhaps.

But if on the other hand, I had two equally qualified employees, one who was good at their job and one who wasn't so good, I would sack the one that wasn't so good.

I realise that there are lots of issues here and this is just one of them.

I am not saying that all people who lose their jobs are poor workers, just that some of them are.

It would be a very foolish boss indeed who sacked all their good workers and kept all their poor ones on, whatever political philosophy they adhered to.

GrannyRose15 I think this is exactly why people think of Conservatives as heartless. Why should one of the two be less 'good' than the other? How about, as in most companies, each being good and doing their job to the standard required. That means the person owning the firm needs to find another way of doing things and use the brain they were given instead of feeling so superior - because they never lose their jobs because they are rubbish, do they?

So we now have Conservatives treating the old as rubbish to be got rid of at the cheapest cost. Children as rubbish - just don't feed them and we will be rid of them and now a proportion of workers as rubbish - throw them out of their jobs and don't give them enough to live on or feed their families and heat their homes while the economy picks up.

I know where I think the "rubbish" title lies although just as of old I would probably call them cruel rather than rubbish. There is room in this world for all of us. None of us owns it and a Conservative's little bit can be taken away from them as quickly as the people they "rubbish" can lose theirs.

Good Lord, it's enough to turn people into communists, although it won't of course as most people, other than Conservatives, believe in democracy, not a creed that proposes domination by the thugs of society, call them Barons, the Aristocracy (new or old) or just those with the sharpest elbows. Conservatism is incompatible with democracy as both Trump and Johnson have shown. It works on inequality and prejudice and should have no place in our "democratic" country.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

I do agree that In some sectors expensive people get the heave ho - especially if they gave a fixed term contract. Teachers often seem to become too expensive for academies. Happens in university sector as well.

Well in one local business I am aware of the not so great employee has been kept on because they are shagging the boss. I assume that sort of thing happens nationwide.

I know of another company where they wanted to keep someone who is great but because they have been employed less than 2 years it is much cheaper to get rid of them than less good employees who have been there years. Presumably that’s why stats show young people have been particularly affected during the pandemic.

they tend to get rid of the ones who cost them more, ie the older ones/ been there longest/ know more/ more able. IMO.

Dinahmo

GrannyRose If you were running a small business at the start of the lock downs and you had two employees - one highly skilled and one a junior - which one would you get rid of? Given that it's your business and you could manage the work yourself with the aid of the junior, I suspect it would be the highly skilled one. Thereby saving yourself enough money to maybe get you through.

Perhaps.

But if on the other hand, I had two equally qualified employees, one who was good at their job and one who wasn't so good, I would sack the one that wasn't so good.

I realise that there are lots of issues here and this is just one of them.

I am not saying that all people who lose their jobs are poor workers, just that some of them are.

It would be a very foolish boss indeed who sacked all their good workers and kept all their poor ones on, whatever political philosophy they adhered to.

I think it is really important if you are a conservative to question whether you are idealistic about what you believe in or are voting for. I don't vote Labour either. If people are looking after their own and making their own success, carers need to be paid more for a start - especially those that are poor and have no choice

LauraNorder

Nezumi you stated that a Conservative value is that you make your success.
I disagree. A Conservative value is that all people should be given the tools, the opportunity and the a encouragement to make their own success.

Hmm

Not really what has happened since Cameron is it. They binned Every Child Matters & Every Disabled Child Matters a d destroyed Sure Start for starters. This has been devastating for those who most needed support.

They have let corporate ‘care’ companies buy up vast numbers of smaller providers (& made it almost impossible to break even as a smaller provider) allowing hedge funds to make vast profits while disabled people are fed on £2.50 a day. And in the above I am only commenting on their policies that have directly impacted our family (& we are relatively well off).

So if a conservative value is being given tools and opportunities then I would say this govt is not very conservative.

Still at least minister’s mates have had opportunities to make large amounts of cash out of this pandemic.

Oopsadaisy1

I saw an advert on the television recently saying that 85% of women found that their skin was softer using a particular brand of moisturiser. At the bottom of the screen it said that 247 women had been surveyed.
If this survey has asked 25 million people maybe I would believe that Britain (presumably Scotland , Wales and Ireland are not included) are heartless.
How you can survey the 2,500 people out of approx 66 million and come to a conclusion really seems to be quite a leap.

It's been mentioned before that Kings College came up with the questions and commissioned YouGov to carry out the survey.

YouGov turns to online panels comprising a million people in the UK – and millions more internationally – whose members are constantly consulted for their opinions on everything from the news of the day to which brand of bread they buy. Anyone can enrol with YouGov. They are constantly questioning members about their preferences, in order to better track the changing tastes/views of general public. over time.

The numbers for this survey are probably the maximum they select.

It's worthwhile reading their methodology (in the form of questions and answers). It will answer your question Oopsadaisy1

yougov.co.uk/about/panel-methodology/research-qs/

They have built up a good reputation for reliability using this methodology.

Oopsadaisy1

I saw an advert on the television recently saying that 85% of women found that their skin was softer using a particular brand of moisturiser. At the bottom of the screen it said that 247 women had been surveyed.
If this survey has asked 25 million people maybe I would believe that Britain (presumably Scotland , Wales and Ireland are not included) are heartless.
How you can survey the 2,500 people out of approx 66 million and come to a conclusion really seems to be quite a leap.

I don't think those who have studied this and now work in this area would agree with you but I can see that you have reached a different conclusion to those knowledgable in the subject and you have a right to that opinion of course.

LauraNorder You have vanilla slices!

LauraNorder It's very easy to see something in the news which saddens you and you send a donation. Easy peasy.

When I was first a volunteer for Save The Children people would not put money in the collecting tins because "it's going to foreign children" When I tried to explain that about 1/3 (at that time) was spent on projects in the UK they either didn't believe me or didn't approve of some of the projects.

growstuff Sat 27-Feb-21 15:14:58

The concept of blame is part of the argument about meritocracy. It is argued that others are always responsible for their lack of success. It's a Conservative value to the core.

I agree.

LauraNorder

PippaZ “However, I would personally prefer to believe the glimpse it gives me of the way people think other than a couple of Gransnetters telling me how kind and wonderful their friends are. One is distinctly more scientific than the other”.

I would prefer to use my own judgement based on years of experience, of reading, of research and of interacting with the human race.

So point me to the research. I would be pleased to read it.

A survey by an academic institution and two of their partners isn't the same as a bit of marketing research about moisturiser!

How many times does someone have to explain that the sample size was perfectly adequate? If you don't have a background in statistical analysis then no, you don't get to say that the sample size was inadequate. If you do have such a background, please present your evidence that this report is flawed.

They did the research, then published what it said. The report didn't say anyone was heartless.

Do I think Britain is a heartless nation? NO.

Do I think that a serious piece of research has identified that some people (not 2,500, read it again) think people have lost their jobs due to poor performance? YES

Are some of those people Conservative voters? YES

“I saw an advert on the television recently saying that 85% of women found that their skin was softer using a particular brand of moisturiser. At the bottom of the screen it said that 247 women had been surveyed.”

? oooh which one was it, Oops? I must buy it and promote it to all my friends.....Not!

I saw an advert on the television recently saying that 85% of women found that their skin was softer using a particular brand of moisturiser. At the bottom of the screen it said that 247 women had been surveyed.
If this survey has asked 25 million people maybe I would believe that Britain (presumably Scotland , Wales and Ireland are not included) are heartless.
How you can survey the 2,500 people out of approx 66 million and come to a conclusion really seems to be quite a leap.

Crossed posts again!
I agree though, Laura. Coffee and cake.