Pippa Middleton has had a baby girl[smile]

I know nothing will change re the above apart from a bit of fiddling around at the edges, but don’t let’s pretend that British society is anything but massively unfair and unequal.As for PM - she now has the added advantage of who her sister is. She may or may not be a really nice person - that’s actually irrelevant

vegansrock

It is not the case that we mention the schools people go to as some kind of denigration, quite the contrary, there is still a culture of forelock tugging towards the aristocracy where some have lifelong privileges not bestowed on others . This country is still ridden with a class system whereby one can be given titles merely because of an accident of birth. I doubt there is one area of public life in this country whether it is the military, judiciary, politics, even the theatre and arts, where attending a public school has been a disadvantage. This is not to say we can’t point to individuals who have emerged by virtue of their own talent, but there are even more of those who have emerged from a family dynasty.

Exactly this. Hard evidence ( not sweeping generalisations) show how privately educated people still dominate in all areas of public and private life. And it’s not simply because they are better than their state school counterparts. It’s the huge network of privilege and power and well connected people that it gives you access to.
Years ago UCAS followed up the degree classifications awarded to every student in a particular cohort and compared it to their A level grades. The results were crystal clear - privately educated pupils consistently under performed given what would have been expected. Having the advantage of much smaller classes and the superior resources of independent schools meant they got higher A level grades not because they were brighter but because of such advantages. That’s why some universities think places at top universities should take more seriously potential and not actual ability.

We’ve seen in the pandemic how the independent schools have had superior material resources for their students whilst some state school pupils waited months for a laptop or broadband access whilst Gavin Williamson floundered and wrung his hands.

I only repeated the information you had given in your post Lexi. I asked you to explain why it is 'preferable to be from a poor family' - which is what you posted and you still can't explain.

It is not the case that we mention the schools people go to as some kind of denigration, quite the contrary, there is still a culture of forelock tugging towards the aristocracy where some have lifelong privileges not bestowed on others . This country is still ridden with a class system whereby one can be given titles merely because of an accident of birth. I doubt there is one area of public life in this country whether it is the military, judiciary, politics, even the theatre and arts, where attending a public school has been a disadvantage. This is not to say we can’t point to individuals who have emerged by virtue of their own talent, but there are even more of those who have emerged from a family dynasty.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinions suziewoozie and I would strongly defend your right to give them, but as you may have noticed, I seldom agree with you.

Jane made several assumptions about me on which she based her post, which may have been measured and polite, but though she said that she didn’t want to lecture me, in my opinion, she did, and as she doesn’t know me I thought it patronising. You disagree, fine by me, it’s your opinion.

You too are missing the point about those from a poorer background. Personally I back to the hilt and applaud anyone who works hard and is successful, no matter where they come from, but particularly if they have had, say, severe financial restraints, which they have to overcome to succeed. However, it is noticeable that when these efforts are vigorously applauded (quite rightly) personal achievements always seem to be listed, whereas all we hear about someone from a more affluent background is the school attended, the friends and preferably any high jinks that have been dug up. This trait is particularly noticeable with politicians, which I think I have already mentioned. Apart from ‘Good Works’ the type of thing I mean is such as picking fruit to work your way through college being applauded, doing voluntary work all through the Long Vac not mentioned.

People seem increasingly to try to disguise their backgrounds because it leaves them open to criticism. Accents are the same, how many estuary accents are around?

As for Pippa, I do feel sorry for her. Ok she married a wealthy man, not yet a punishable offence as far as I know. She doesn’t court the press. No one seemed to know she was having a baby, she didn’t make a big fuss about it. She wrote a book about entertaining that was panned, but that’s about it, yet she gets criticised without opening her mouth.

It looks like we have accused each other of making generalisations today,

Anyway I think the topic is now exhausted as far as I am concerned. I’m sure we will cross swords again, I totally respect your views, just don’t always agree with them. Nb although I now class myself a floating voter, I stay well clear of the Politics page, I have too much respect for my blood pressure! However I shall continue to sit on the fence about the Royal Family, though I think there’s a lot to come, I may need a cushion.

Lexi I’m sorry but I think you’re being very harsh to Jane whose post was very measured and polite. I honestly don’t know why comments about PM matter so much. She’s a complete stranger to us all. I think it’s really not true that coming from a poor background is seen as a major advantage. What I think is true is that people from poorer backgrounds have to struggle harder in many cases to achieve what they do achieve and this is to be applauded. We don’t know each other on GN ( unless we’ve met up in RL) We all make assumptions based on what we choose to reveal about ourselves ( and who knows if that’s true?) Discussions about inequalities are complex and I think too difficult to have properly on this type of forum with sweeping generalisations being made.

Right, I said I wouldn’t do this but now I am forced to reply, JaneJudge you are, as I suspected some would, looking for things that are not there.

You know nothing whatsoever about me, and I take great exception to what you have said. You say you don’t want to lecture, but that is exactly what you are doing,

I have not claimed to be from any class, you are making assumptions. Incidently there are students of all classes at private schools, have you never heard of scholarships and Bursaries?

At no time in my life have I personally felt disadvantaged from being privately educated so it would be very difficult to do what you suggest. My accent has been mocked, but that says more about those doing the mocking than it does me.

What I was referring to was the way that coming from a poorer background has somehow become a major virtue, and those that have been more fortunate are made to feel guilty about the fact that they are more fortunate. Examples of this can be seen in the press regularly, think politicians in all parties. Similarly, there have even been articles about various individuals in the Public Eye who try to imply a poorer background because they think it gives them more kudos.

I too have worked with families in very reduced circumstances, so I really didn’t need to hear your homily, once again you know nothing about me, my career, my life

You have obviously read something into my post that was not intended, for which I am sorry, of course material wealth makes life easier, only an idiot would disagree, but that was not my point.

grandmajet

That is absolutely true. However no one should be on the receiving end of an insult based purely on the wealth or otherwise of their birth family.

I never said anyone should be

That is absolutely true. However no one should be on the receiving end of an insult based purely on the wealth or otherwise of their birth family.

I also have some seriously seriously wealthy friends - inherited wealth handed to them on a very very very big plate. I have friends from modest backgrounds who have succeeded in building up a successful business or a thriving career and I’ve friends who despite working hard and being thoroughly decent people have never been materially comfortable, it’s much more complex than is being presented by some posters on here.

Lexi, I think it would have been kinder and more influential if you'd actually said why you feel disadvantaged because you went to private school and were/are middle class as it is quite alien to people who are poor and that being preferable. I work with disadvantaged families (not just financial disadvantage) and take away one luxury you take for granted for a few days and see how you would cope with that. I always use hot water as an example as having a cold wash in a cold bathroom instead of a quick warm shower in a warm room, is the reality for some people, then you have you have to put on the clothes you have had to wear for the last few days as you haven't got the facilities to dry your clothes even if you washed them. Being cold is a reality for lots of people who are poor. I don't want to lecture you but can you please think before you post coming from a poor family is seen as preferable. It is never preferable to be poor.

Lexisgranny

All I want to say is that whatever your background it is quite possible to face difficulties, I would just like to see this more universally acknowledged. Everyone deserves a fair chance if they work hard and do their best and whereas I applaud all those who succeed against adversity, I don’t condone that, as happens so often, it is implied that those from more affluent backgrounds have had everything handed to them on a plate, yes there are advantages, but there are still exams to pass etc.

I don’t intend to say any more, this could go into a marathon,

Well I’ve been poor and I’ve been better off - better off is better.

All I want to say is that whatever your background it is quite possible to face difficulties, I would just like to see this more universally acknowledged. Everyone deserves a fair chance if they work hard and do their best and whereas I applaud all those who succeed against adversity, I don’t condone that, as happens so often, it is implied that those from more affluent backgrounds have had everything handed to them on a plate, yes there are advantages, but there are still exams to pass etc.

I don’t intend to say any more, this could go into a marathon,

Thanks for the Joan Hunter Dunn poem posted upthread.
Years since I read it.

Vegansrock It is possible to be called Posh in a very derisory way based on the way you speak. It is a form of bullying that I have experienced, as have members of my family.

Is it unkind to be called posh? I don’t think most people would prefer to be poor than posh - I’m guessing most people would rather be posh than poor given the choice wouldn’t they?

No need to apologise, I should have written more clearly. Hope you have a good evening.

I don't think anyone has suggested it is a crime have they? you posted;

" I wish someone could explain to me why it is nowadays preferable to have been born into a poor family, rather than a middle class one, or God forbid, an upper class one."

It is never preferable to be born poor. Can you explain why you think it is preferable to be born into a poor family? You have mentioned snide comments but has it affected you in adverse manner to have been given 8 years of private education or to have been 'middle class'?

People have agreed with you but no one has explained the benefits of being born poor. I'm interested to hear what they are

Sorry. Feeling v grumpy today. Apols.

Polarbear2. I just started my post by saying that I had sympathy for Pippa etc.

Maybe I should have started a new paragraph then, because then I went on to speak about those who get a lot of snide remarks about the way they speak and where they went to school, not necessarily in newspapers, but from what some might call privileged homes.

JaneJudge In an ideal world, no one should be born poor, but neither is it a crime not to be poor.

grandmajet

Strangely it seems to be acceptable to be born into a wealthy family and be a millionaire if you decide to become a left wing politician. Tony Benn springs to mind.

I don’t think this is generally true - wealthy left of centre people are frequently sneered at by right of centre people.FWIW there is nothing wrong with it - many of our great social reformers have been wealthy and left of centre

Yes of course.

Surely it is preferable that nobody is born poor

Lexisgranny

I have a lot of sympathy for Pippa and her contempories. This thread and comments elsewhere have raised again a question I have thought about often. I wish someone could explain to me why it is nowadays preferable to have been born into a poor family, rather than a middle class one, or God forbid, an upper class one. The worse thing to admit is that you were privately educated, a big no-no, it might result in sounding ‘Posh’. No-one chooses the family into which they are born, no-one should feel they have to disguise their birthright be they born in castle or cottage, nor should they have to put up with snide remarks. The child of a rich man with 4 A*s at A level has as much right to a top university place as the daughter of a poor one and vice versa.

Rant over, By the way before there is any speculation I was not born into a rich family, nor a poor one, but I was privately educated for 8 years.

Fair enough. Out of interest- assuming you have children- did the papers cover the birth and announce the name? Did total strangers obsess over it? That’s the sticking point. Not how rich or otherwise she is.

I entirely agree, but difficult to fight when you are on the end of it as I am sure Pippa has found.