Shocked by the news from Colorado

I went back to read the entire thread and I stand by my post. The misinformation on this post was horrid.

Mass shootings are usually caused by mental health issues. THAT is what I was referring to. I am going to assume that suicides are as well.

Other gun violence is a result of inequality in the US. A movement to change that is underway in the US. I assume that you have seen the news since one of you mentioned having 15 minutes a day of hearing about us.

The number of liberal gun owners has sky rocketed in the last year. So no, it isn't just the religious right. In fact, a liberal just shot a man who broke into his house in the middle of the night right here in Denver. So yes, we do fear for our safety in our own homes.

The majority of people in the US do support gun reform. But that doesn't mean they support gun confiscation. The gun reform they support is the laws we have in the books in Colorado. Universal background checks, limiting capacity and Red Flag Laws.

Again, Colorado has every one of those on the books and it didn't stop this mass shooting because it was mental health issue. One phone call is all it would have took to have those guns removed from the home. The family is liable for these deaths.

And suzie: please do not allude that I am the gun lobby because I believe in gun rights. Nor am I the religious right. If you want to talk about lobbyists in the US, I am happy to give it a go with you. It is a corrupt system that needs to go. But it isn't just the NRA pulling the strings and it isn't just the republicans who are bought and paid.

Freedom we in the UK really appreciate you posting your views on this. Now.....please, please explain this. Why do you all need guns?
If to defend yourselves then the obvious answer is that you wouldn't need a gun to defend yourself if other people weren't all armed with guns.

Well, criminals don't seem to follow laws. I mean, murder is against the law here and it doesn't stop them. Do you think that criminals are going to give up their guns? Maybe you brits can tell us of your plan to get the criminals here in the US to give up their guns since you seem to have strong opinions on how we live in the US.

I know you all dont understand gun ownership in the US. But asking why we need guns is like me asking you why you need a Monarchy. As an American, the thought of a Monarchy leaves me laughing. We fought against that and won. Why do you drink tea? Why do you eat scones? You can ask this question about any aspect of our different cultures. The answer is always going to be the same. Because we are different cultures.

As I said, my husband is a collector. He enjoys shooting his guns at targets at a gun range safely and he hunts for meat we eat in the fall. If any person came into my house, they wouldn't even know there were guns here. They also wouldn't be able to get to them because of the double lock down.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions on gun ownership. I just believe that one should form that opinion based on facts. People in this thread though the President had the power to strip us of our gun rights. They had no idea about the Brady law or states working to close the loopholes.

Guns are part of our culture. We do believe in sensible gun laws. We do not believe in total gun confiscation. We certainly do not believe in criminals and yet we still have those.

Not sure you can compare our tea drinking and scone eating to owning guns.

Not all Americans own guns. Apparently 44% of Americans have a gun/guns in their household.

news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx

I watch the True Crime shows occasionally and so many murders could have been avoided had a gun not been to hand. It's quite tragic. A young boy was killed at his friend's house when they were playing with a gun they'd found. I am sure we all know numerous scenarios where this has played out.

I'm sure that the majority of gun owners are careful and responsible.

But I'm not sure that it's entirely fair to blame mental health issues for these crimes either.

We did change our gun laws after the tragedy of Dunblane. It can be done. Australia also managed to do the same after the massacre they had in Port Arthur

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/15/it-took-one-massacre-how-australia-made-gun-control-happen-after-port-arthur

There is clearly the world of a difference between a responsible gun collector who keeps his guns and ammo seperately locked away and the number of Americans who walk around armed to the hilt in crowded areas, or buy sub machine guns to terrify and kill.

A gun owner like the husband of freedomfromthepast could be licenced to buy, keep and use guns in the same way in the UK.

I am not comparing tea and guns. I am comparing culture and used tea as an example. You can choose to not see that all you want.

Gun control can not "just be done". See in the US we have a constitution. Here are the steps to do that:

Congress may submit a proposed constitutional amendment to the states, if the proposed amendment language is approved by a two-thirds vote of both houses.

Congress must call a convention for proposing amendments upon application of the legislatures of two-thirds of the states (i.e., 34 of 50 states).

Amendments proposed by Congress or convention become valid only when ratified by the legislatures of, or conventions in, three-fourths of the states (i.e., 38 of 50 states).

We also have states rights guaranteed by the 10th Amendment explained here: www.thoughtco.com/states-rights-4582633

While it isn't a direct comparison, I like to explain that each state is similar to a European country and the federal government is like the EU. Again, not a direct comparison.

The EU has certain powers (Federal), but each country has its own powers (State). And different countries (States) can not tell other countries what to do. Wont happen.

So, because of all these protections given to us in our Constitution, we have limits on what the Federal Government can and cant tell us to do.

In regards to gun laws, this means the laws created by the federal government can be challenged by the states. Here are 2 good examples:

Marijuana use. It is against the law to possess or use pot in the US. But 11 states have legalized recreation use. 35 states have allowed medical marijuana use.

Immigration: Federal immigration law trumps state. However several states in the US have become "sanctuary states" in direct opposition to federal law.

Now knowing this, do you still think that gun control is as simple as the president telling us to do it? Nope!

Because of the impossibility of a federal gun ban, each state creates laws aimed at common sense gun control. In most states that means universal background checks, limited magazine capability and red flag laws. All of which Colorado has.

None of those laws helped in the case of the Boulder shooting.

You know what would have helped? If this man had gotten help for his mental illness. His family could have stopped this shooting.

I am happy to go around again on this if you would like? But really it boils down to America is a republic. Our rights are written into the constitution and it takes a lot to take those away.

I am happy to listen to any ideas on how we get our criminals to give up their guns so that we can all give up our guns. You all have a lot of opinions on how we live.

Oh, and here is a good example of why so many Americans want guns for protection. These people were in the "safety" of their own homes.

www.9news.com/video/news/crime/2-shot-during-home-invasion-in-south-denver/73-0fb5f505-ed1c-4cf3-9e70-02b1404d3587

Him too: www.9news.com/article/news/local/denver-shooting-lafayette-street/73-6a13e976-708e-4c94-9aaf-4e6e96036180

SOrry, I had a typo. This

In regards to gun laws, this means the laws created by the federal government can be challenged by the states. Here are 2 good examples:

Should be this:

In regards to laws, this means the laws created by the federal government can be challenged by the states. Here are 2 good examples:

Chestnut

Freedom we in the UK really appreciate you posting your views on this. Now.....please, please explain this. Why do you all need guns?
If to defend yourselves then the obvious answer is that you wouldn't need a gun to defend yourself if other people weren't all armed with guns.

I don't think you've answered this question Freedom.
Of course criminals may have guns, but you have created this situation in the first place by having millions of guns in circulation. If criminals have guns then the only answer is for everyone else to carry a gun too?
You say guns are a cultural thing. Don't you think this is a dangerous culture in the 21st century when most people live in cities? Guns are lethal weapons. Tea and scones, and our dear Queen, are not.
As I said before, people in rural areas may want rifles for protection from dangerous animals, and may use them for obtaining meat, but this is very different from city dwellers, who would only need a gun to shoot a human being.

Again my thanks to freedom for joining in with gusto and putting the other side of the argument.

Just supposing the US somehow decided to restrict the ownership of firearms. Where would they start? Given that so many people hold guns for all sorts of reasons. I think that in itself would be quite problematic.

(That's to everyone, btw, not specifically to freedom).

I have answered this question. You just didn't like my answer.

We have guns for personal protection. To hunt. Collectors.

I personally, nor has my husband, created this by allowing millions of guns into circulation. Though I know that isn't what you meant.

We live in the city and my husband hunts. So because we live in the city we don't need to hunt for meat, thus we don't need a gun?

People in the cities are more likely to be victims of crime, thus needing to protect themselves, as shown by my post above.

A gun is only a lethal weapon if the person holding it is using it to kill someone.

A car could be a lethal weapon.
Fertilizer could be a lethal weapon. Used in a bomb.
And yes, even tea could be lethal:

www.cnn.com/2017/03/21/health/poisoned-herbal-tea-death-san-francisco/index.html

Freedom A gun is only a lethal weapon if the person holding it is using it to kill someone.
Obviously there are many other things which can kill people. But the only purpose of a gun is to kill (unless you are doing target practice). It is designed as a lethal weapon. That is its purpose. It therefore has no place in the modern world except for hunting, protection from dangerous animals in the wild, or for the Police or armed services.
The answer to criminals with guns is not to give everyone else a gun. The more guns in circulation the more people will be shot.

It would be interesting if we had a US poster with the opposite point of view from freedom's.

And, I'm sure you must be aware, freedom, gun ownership is allowed in the UK and in Europe. It's just that controls are far more strict.

That is your opinion Chestnut and you are entitled to it. All you have to say is you disagree with me.

But I am entitled to my opinion as well. I am not forcing you or anyone else to have a gun. And I will not use my gun to hurt anyone, unless I fear for my safety.

The fact is that, in the US, just because you don't like my gun, doesn't mean you can take it away.

You don't understand our love of guns in the US. Ok. I don't understand your love of the monarchy. Doesn't make either of us wrong, just different.

Oh and my husband does target practice. As I said earlier.

Most Americans do not own a gun or live in a household where someone owns a gun.

news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx

What is the difference between the gunowning minority and the majority of citizens in the USA?

You don't understand our love of guns in the US. Ok. I don't understand your love of the monarchy.

At least our monarchy doesn't kill anyone...

It is a moot point whether it would be easier for the UK to get rid of the monarchy or the USA to get rid of the guns.

MaizieD

^You don't understand our love of guns in the US. Ok. I don't understand your love of the monarchy.^

At least our monarchy doesn't kill anyone...

I love passive aggressive comments. It really shows that one doesn't have much to add to a discussion.

I always love when people present gallup polls as evidence.

This results are from a poll of 1,035 people. We have a population of over 330 million.

So out of that 1035 people, 32% own a gun. Not representative of actual gun ownership. especially this year when gun sales have skyrocketed due to the civil unrest.

I am not here to change your minds about gun ownership. And honestly, until any of you move here and become citizens, you opinion doesn't mean squat to me.

But I hope that even one person sits back today and says to themselves, wow, am I looking at this with the lens of a sterotype? I also hope that even one person will read what I wrote and think, wow, now I understand better how the laws in the US work in regards to the rights of the people and our culture going back 245 years.

I have seen mentions of "religious right".

I have voted republican, democrat and 3rd party. I am an atheist. I believe in a women's right to choose. I believe in helping immigrants. I also believe in my individual right. I have a friend who is a Bernie Sanders supporter. She owns a gun.

My original post was in result specifically about the Boulder shooting. His family has known for years that he was paranoid and delusional. They did nothing. They knew 2 days before the shooting that he had a gun. They took it away and tried to hide it from him. If they weren't feeling safe with him having a gun, why didn't they call the police? This is why we have Red Flag Laws.

So yes, I blame this shooting on mental health. Not on the gun.

He planned on killing people. And if it wouldn't have been this gun it could have been a bomb. Or a truck.

MaizieD: By the way. Yes, it has.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/worst-atrocities-british-empire-amritsar-boer-war-concentration-camp-mau-mau-a6821756.html

Freedom I am not so much giving an opinion as stating facts, i.e. a gun is a lethal weapon and is designed to kill. That is not an opinion, it is a fact. So saying I am entitled to my opinion is incorrect.
You keep mentioning your husband, who goes hunting and does target practice. Your family activities are not relevant to this discussion. You are just one family in millions, I'm sure you keep your guns locked up etc. and no-one is disputing that or suggesting you do anything wrong with regard to gun keeping. It does not relate to a discussion about guns in general, because there are probably millions of people who are not responsible like you.
It's rather like a discussion on dangerous dogs mauling children, to which you respond that your dog is well behaved and under control. Not relevant.
So in order to protect yourselves from criminals with guns it seems the answer is to arm everyone with guns.

I know it sounds callous but I always think if the Americans can't be bothered to sort out the problem, why should I care? They trot out their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment as though there had never been adjustments to the Constitution.

MaizieD

^You don't understand our love of guns in the US. Ok. I don't understand your love of the monarchy.^

At least our monarchy doesn't kill anyone...

If the Amereicans want to cling to their guns on the basis of a 200+ years old piece of parchment then let them stick to 200+ years old arms. Whilst I know that in the very remote parts of the US there is a need for guns to protect oneself there is no need for military grade automatic weapons that are more common in Afghanistan.

That seems to be the bottom line Chesnut. My British friend in California said her neighbour told her she has a gun so if a criminal shoots at her, she can shoot back. Thing is, where are the police? Why is everyone so scared for their life?

freedomfromthepast

MaizieD: By the way. Yes, it has.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/worst-atrocities-british-empire-amritsar-boer-war-concentration-camp-mau-mau-a6821756.html

I don't think that Queen Victoria or Edward VII personally went out and killed people in India and South Africa.

OTH, if we're going to start comparing our nations' respective wars and massacres I think we'd be on pretty dodgy ground.

Chestnut:

I didnt say that guns kill people is an opinion. That is a fact that cant be disputed.

"It therefore has no place in the modern world except for hunting, protection from dangerous animals in the wild, or for the Police or armed services."

THIS is an opinion, not fact. One that you and I don't share.

I have given several examples of why people in the US own guns. It matters not to me if you agree with it or not. Because it is your opinion. Mine is different.

And yes, my scenario IS valid to this discussion. Your opinion is that guns should only be owned for hunting and protection from dangerous wild animals and the police. If your opinion mattered my husband the gun collector would not be able to own his guns.

The fact is that the majority of legal gun owners in the US do not kill people. The same as the majority of people who drive cars dont kill people.

Yes there needs to be sensible gun laws in the US. the majority of people, even conservatives, agree with that. But Colorado has some of the strictest gun laws in the US and yet has had more than its fair share of mass shootings.

One solution is to take away everyone's guns. But I have shown why that isn't a viable solution. Constitutional change isn't simply "just done" Because of the way our Constitution works.

So, please, tell me what your idea is to curb gun violence in a country you don't live in. I am all ears. Maybe you can solve it!

Be sure to include your ideas for curbing the crime that makes residents feel the need to protect themselves. And of course, I am sure you will come up with something that will ensure the criminals will give up thier guns too.

You can start in Chicago.

"Other numbers in Chicago also are markedly higher than a year ago: 4,115 people shot. 11,280 illegal guns seized. 7,236 gun arrests."

chicago.suntimes.com/2020/12/30/22206618/chicago-gun-violence-homicides-policing-community-outreach-university-of-chicago-crime-lab-editorial

MaizieD: I am not the one who said the monarchy doesn't kill. It absolutely does. Or it sends people out on its behalf. People still die. Which is the point isn't it? The fact that people die?

I also never said my country's government never kills. Way to much IMO. I think that we should mind our own business and take care of ourselves, but then I hear about living in a Global society. Cant win.

The discussion I was having was in regards to culture. The monarchy is an age old institution that is also part of your culture. Gun ownership is written into our constitution and is also part of our culture.