David Lammy on LBC

NotSpaghetti

There is plenty of this out there it seems.
My son sent me this:

youtu.be/epi6-zDCwIg

I'm afraid "Jean" and "Oswald" aren't alone in their views.

MaizieD

^While people of Jean's ilk; the nationalists, the extreme right wing, the hard of thinking, have been encouraged by this present regime and even feel comfortable airing their vitriol is extremely worrying^

I agree with you, Returnof themc. I was thinking that, too after I had seen it.

Curiously, I didn't think she was in the least bit vitriolic. Just absolutely sure that she was correct. It was a bit chilling, really. That absolute assurance made me suspect that she's used to people around her agreeing with her.

Maizie Your last sentence resonated. I sometimes think there are people on GN who post as though they have never had their views challenged and are surprised when they are.

I think there's a difference between nationality and ethnic origin. The term 'English' as an ethnicity does imply white British, while anyone whose ancestors are from another country might be British in nationality but something else as an ethnic group. If David Lammy were asked what his nationality was he could say British but if asked what his ethnicity was he would say Afro Caribbean.
Being English/Welsh I don't see that as a nationality, I see it as an ethnic group. I see my nationality as British.

I have watched the video and David Lammy deserves a medal. Chestnut for your views on ethnicity and nationality to hold true then we would need DNA tests prove some people’s ethnicity.

What is an ethnic group?

If you were to test everybody in the UK for DNA, you would find that there are trends even among people who regard themselves as white English. For example, people in the north tend to have more Scandinavian genes, but people have moved around so much the distinctions are blurred.

People such as "Jean" can't see beyond Lammy's skin colour - and that's the truth of it.

UK citizens can trace their ancestry back to hundreds of so-called ethnic groups. Even the Saxons and the Angles came from foreign countries. In fact, the forefathers of everybody in the UK originally came from a different part of the globe.

I do not believe that ethnic background makes a jot of difference. What are David Lammy's children? Are they English of Afro-Caribbean? I think they were born in the UK, so they're British (English if born in England) and that's all that matters.

"Jean" and "Oswald" are ignorant and were talking out of their backsides.

Chestnut Your so-called ethnic background is more complicated than English/Welsh. I doubt if there is anybody in the UK with "pure" ethnicity.

But I guess you don't have black skin, so nobody ever accuses you of not being British or even Welsh/English. In any case, Wales and England are themselves political entities. If wars hundreds of years ago had turned out differently, the countries could very well have had different borders or no border at all.

There were a number of pupils in my school who had one or both parents who were Polish.
Those people and their children and grandchildren will all now be completely accepted as British, English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish - because they are white.
It's clear that skin colour is an insurmountable barrier in some people's minds.

Curiously, I didn't think she was in the least bit vitriolic. Just absolutely sure that she was correct.
That's how I heard it.

I was giving Jean the benefit of the doubt, in thinking she was just trying to be accurate rather than prejudiced, until she came out with the 'polluted' comment.
That was appalling.

That's how I feel FarNorth. There were some girls at my school with parents from Poland too. Nobody ever questioned the children's ethnicity because they were white. Ironically, Poland is quite a new country and Poles have a diverse ethnic background - which is why many of them were persecuted, first by Germans and then by Soviets. Their offspring will now be completely integrated because they are white.

In the Northwest many people can trace their ancestry back to Ireland. For some, the Irish heritage is still strong, but many others call themselves English and nobody ever questions it, because they are white.

I think it is because people like Jean (and she's not the only one) are so convinced they are right that their views are so dangerous. To her it wouldn't even be an opinion, but in her mind a fact.

What a ghastly woman - but actually people who are unable to understand that most human beings have diverse genetic origins and that nationality and ethnicity are two separate things just make themselves look ignorant and bigoted.

The man speaking to Maajid Nawaz on LBC was also unable to address the points raised regarding ethnicity and nationality because he just couldn't understand what was being said.

Perhaps those gransnetters who repeatedly deny that there is a problem with racism in this country can ponder these two broadcasts. Some sections of the white population claim "we can't say anything about anything any more without being called racist". But it seems, despite the so-called politically correct times that are so often sneered about, some people feel quite free to air their ignorant and offensive views.

I agree with you Eloethan. Both of them have a frightening combination of an absolute belief they are right and ignorance.

This topic really interests me.

I found this article about "Cheddar Man" who lived 10,000 years ago. Scientists believe that he had dark skin, curly hair and blue eyes and that 10% of modern Britons are descended from the group of people to which Cheddar Man belonged.

www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/07/first-modern-britons-dark-black-skin-cheddar-man-dna-analysis-reveals

Both Oswald and Jean showed racism to two people (Lammy and the other broadcaster) born in this country.

Both of them were polite in patiently explaining how it all works but the two callers just did not want to listen. They were entrenched in their bigoted views.

It does make me remember articles about how white nationalists/supremacists in the US flocked to the DNA ancestry sites only to find that they had, for instance, 14% or 20% or something like that... sub saharan african in their DNA, they were not as 'white' as they thought!
So they discounted the DNA tests, looked in the mirror and clung to the notion that race and ethnicity are directly visible, which is of course false. Their white identity trumped their DNA so they just discounted the results and considered it a conspiracy.

Thanks for this link growstuff.

Interesting, Just Me. I was musing on that when she insisted that she'd traced her maternal surname back until heaven knows when and she was Anglo Saxon. In between the Anglo Saxon and now there will have been hundreds of pairings of people of completely unknown genetic make up.

I can trace my maternal surname back through 300 years of sturdy English peasantry, so might claim similar. But that was my grandfather's surname. My maternal grandmother's genetic inheritance goes straight back to Africa via slavery in the West Indies. I am White. (I'm disturbed by the fact that my phone insists on capitalising 'White and I can't get it to alter it) No-one would know any different.

Black folk have had years of training, so are used to the sort of idiocy on show on LBC.

They all have their own way of dealing with it.

Sometimes they protest with the faint hope that the ignorance will be laid to rest.

BLM is a protest that points out the overt inequalities and covert racism. Look at the reaction that was shown, GN was a prime example.

Somebody needs to tell her that Anglo-Saxons weren't English anyway.

What an ignorant,arrogant vile person she is and clearly racist.
I`m so proud of David Lammy for not loosing it,as i would have,and even more proud that he is English and one of us.

Growstuff Chestnut Your so-called ethnic background is more complicated than English/Welsh. I doubt if there is anybody in the UK with "pure" ethnicity.
No, it isn't more complicated. I have had a DNA test and it is 90% English and Welsh with a drop of Irish. And my mother was 100% Welsh, probably my relatives too.

I was a bit intrigued by the term ethnicity so I googled it. I like this bit:

Ethnicity can be an inherited status or based on the society within which one lives. Membership of an ethnic group tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, origin myth, history, homeland, language or dialect, symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, art or physical appearance. Ethnic groups often continue to speak related languages and share a similar gene pool.

But I particularly liked this bit:

The nature of ethnicity is still debated by scholars. 'Primordialists' view ethnic groups as real phenomena whose distinct characteristics have endured since the distant past. Others view ethnic groups as a social construct, an identity which is assigned based on rules made by society.

So, some people think its all just made up anyway. I'll go with that.

growstuff

I wonder how that woman would describe Lammy's children. His wife is white British (English?)

I think we know how people like her describe women who marry black men

Chestnut

Growstuff Chestnut Your so-called ethnic background is more complicated than English/Welsh. I doubt if there is anybody in the UK with "pure" ethnicity.
No, it isn't more complicated. I have had a DNA test and it is 90% English and Welsh with a drop of Irish. And my mother was 100% Welsh, probably my relatives too.

But who are/were the English, Welsh and Irish?

All of them have ancestors who were originally immigrants to the British Isles.

Did your DNA test specify at which point in history your ancestors lived in England, Wales and Ireland?

I agree with that Alegrias. Nineteenth century scholars were obsessed with the idea of ethnicity, which is not a scientific concept. Those ideas were linked to a mangled version of the Theory of Evolution. Fast forward 1930s Europe ...

I think most people are proud of their ethnic group, even though they have taken on the nationality of the country they live or were born in. Most people want to know their ethnic origins, there are many programmes on TV on that very subject. And millions are taking DNA tests to find out what groups their ancestors were. Your nationality and your ethnicity are not the same thing.
David Lammy has obviously had a DNA test as he mentions being Afro Caribbean and also Scottish. Presumably his test did not show English, so in a way Jean was right, he cannot say his ethnic group is English. He can say his nationality is British, as I also would.
For the record English does come up as an ethic group for DNA purposes, as does Irish, Scottish and Welsh.

Jean was totally wrong!

Every single person in the British Isles is descended from immigrants.

There is no such thing as a single English ethnic group.