The Govenment report on Race and Ethnic Disparities is being called into question on a daily (or more) basis.

growstuff

Legally, the people working in factories were not slaves. They did have a choice to leave and their children were born free not enslaved. Many people working in factories chose to work there rather than on the land. Nobody dragged them out of the fields to work in a factory, nor did they lack legal rights.

There is no comparison.

I've just said they were enslaved by poverty and lack of education. So not really free. Working on the land was equally back breaking and very low-paid, so maybe they got a few more pennies in the factories and could buy a bit more food for their children. Not much of a choice really. They had no pensions and worked until they dropped. Many were owned by their employers and could not work elsewhere. I can't see their everyday lives were any better than slaves and in law they had very few rights too. So there is a comparison.

Schools are obliged to account for Pupil Premium money and have to publish what is called the "attainment gap" ie the difference between the average pupil eligible for Pupil Premium and those who aren't.

Chestnut

^Yes, white boys from certain backgrounds are disadvantaged. Dos that mean we can't talk about the black ones who are?^
I think the point being made is that there is a great deal of talking now about black and ethnic minorities being disadvantaged and very little attention paid to poor white youngsters, which is why they have been slipping downwards for some time.

That's just not true. The schools attended by all poor children receive Pupil Premium and there are hundreds of schemes to support them. In some cases, they are offered places at university with lower grades than the norm.

There are examples of white slavery, for example in Robert Davis' book 'Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters' he speaks of more than a million European Christians enslaved in North Africa between 1530 and 1780.

White slaves were also to be found in ancient Rome and the Ottoman Empire so it is correct to say "it wasn't only the blacks that were subject to slavery" as they were the property of another so never free.

By the way, I do agree with you that the issue of white working class boys' low attainment at school needs some solutions, but setting them up against children from other backgrounds isn't the way to do that. It's already known that there's a tendency for the white working class in some areas to have racist, right wing views, so there's no need to encourage them, apart from touting for their votes.

foxie48

Growstuff, Thanks for the link and I will read it over the weekend. I shall be particularly interested in why some minority ethnic groups do well and what can be learned from that eg what, if anything insulates them from the effects of institutional racism. Hopefully there will be something on that that can be used to help less successful groups.
There's been some discussion about working class boys and without wishing to subvert the focus of this thread, there has been a resurgence of far right extremism which particularly targets disaffected white boys. This is now included in school safeguarding training. I fear we are manufacturing more Jeans (or Johns) with overtly racist views. Perhaps this is another good reason to consider how we address their particular problems?

Unfortunately foxie48, it says very little in depth. People who have read the report will realise it omits or glosses over much - and that is why so many people are criticising it. Either the issues of racism were discredited or ignored. There is little attempt to grasp some very complex problems. So-called solution are sometimes laughingly simplistic, such as looking to the TV programme Dragons’ Den for answers.

How many people have read the full report yet?

Legally, the people working in factories were not slaves. They did have a choice to leave and their children were born free not enslaved. Many people working in factories chose to work there rather than on the land. Nobody dragged them out of the fields to work in a factory, nor did they lack legal rights.

There is no comparison.

^ Some served their sentences others were too useful and were used to build up the country in the varying states. Slave labour ? You bet.^

We've had discussions like this before. Convicts transported to Australia were not slaves. Once they had finished their sentences they were free. Their conditions were similar to slavery, but it was not the same. Slaves were never free; they were actually the property of the person they worked for. Convicts never were.

Look back in history, it wasn't only the blacks that were subject to slavery,

Yes, that 's true, but I don't think it's true in quite the way you're talking of.

The real problem with Australia, the USA, and other countries is their treatment of the people who actually lived there before the Europeans took over...

I know it's anecdotal but in all the years my, now adult children were at school the top students were invariably the ones with Asian parents. They worked so hard and deserved their high marks. Their families were right behind them and obviously supportive. They turned out as doctors, lawyers and accountants. It's a small world round here and DD and DS have kept in touch. My own children did OK but they never worked as hard.

Agreed Ellen, this country's wealth was not only built on the back of black slaves but millions of white people working in mills and factories 12 hours a day, six days a week (including children) and living in appalling poverty. It was in effect 'slave labour'. Were they free? No, because they were trapped by poverty and lack of education and had no other choice.

Exactly Chestnut. I also think of the way people were treated here in the 18th century when they were bunged off to Australia because they were poor or were imprisoned for stealing a loaf.

I visited a jail in Australia which had been turned into a museum, in Berrima NSW, and it was heartbreaking to see re-enactments of treatment meted out to women and children in court for stealing food. Some served their sentences others were too useful and were used to build up the country in the varying states. Slave labour ? You bet.

Look back in history, it wasn't only the blacks that were subject to slavery, so do we get rid of everything connected to Australia or the USA and start burning their flags ? It works both ways !

Yes we know. But certainly in education it's not from lack of attention. It's just if you want my view mitigating the disadvantages of poverty in comparison to say the advantages of the middle class is almost impossible.

Growstuff, Thanks for the link and I will read it over the weekend. I shall be particularly interested in why some minority ethnic groups do well and what can be learned from that eg what, if anything insulates them from the effects of institutional racism. Hopefully there will be something on that that can be used to help less successful groups.
There's been some discussion about working class boys and without wishing to subvert the focus of this thread, there has been a resurgence of far right extremism which particularly targets disaffected white boys. This is now included in school safeguarding training. I fear we are manufacturing more Jeans (or Johns) with overtly racist views. Perhaps this is another good reason to consider how we address their particular problems?

Galaxy

No that's not true. As I have said every school in the land is legally obliged to look at those disadvantaged by class. Now we arent getting it right God knows. But a great deal of attention is paid to that group in education. We just havent found a way to overcome the absolute disadvantage of poverty and class.

It doesn't seem from what Prof Matt Goodwin says the white boys are getting as much attention as you think.
As the report by the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities makes clear, they perform worse than every other ethnic group at GCSE. By the time they turn 19, white working-class youngsters are the least likely to be in higher education — just 22 per cent, compared with 45 per cent of their peers who are black and 56 per cent of Asian kids.
I have recently been advising the Education Select Committee on these issues and we have sat in on one depressing evidence session after another, hearing how it is usually white working-class kids who are at the bottom of the pile.

No that's not true. As I have said every school in the land is legally obliged to look at those disadvantaged by class. Now we arent getting it right God knows. But a great deal of attention is paid to that group in education. We just havent found a way to overcome the absolute disadvantage of poverty and class.

Yes, white boys from certain backgrounds are disadvantaged. Dos that mean we can't talk about the black ones who are?
I think the point being made is that there is a great deal of talking now about black and ethnic minorities being disadvantaged and very little attention paid to poor white youngsters, which is why they have been slipping downwards for some time.

Right I'll explain.

You referenced the song as (I think) an example of how difficult it was for young men in the sixties to get on in the world. You were using it as an illustration of how hard life was in the sixties. I imagine ( John Lennon reference there ) that you were considering the Lennon was talking about young white men. But he doesn't say, does he? You have assigned whiteness to the hero of his song but not considered that it was equally bad for young black people.

The point is kind of lost now.....

Why ask what colour the Working Class Hero was then ?

Alegrias does it matter what colour ?

No EV it doesn't. That's my point.

Alegrias does it matter what colour ? Jeeze, are you brainwashed !

I spend every governor meeting looking at ways to support white working class boys. whether we are making a difference is a different matter, pupil premium was a great idea but isnt perfect. Sure start centres were actually one of the ways to address the disadvantages of that group but they have been cut of course.

Chestnut he's the hero in my eyes. I certainly knew how things were with Liverpool on the doorstep. Heartbreaking for many.
I don't care about how uncomfortable it is for others, it's the truth and those times shouldn't ever be forgotten. It's only those with selective memories who'll think it unimportant.

Thank God I'm not part of this insidious "woke" society and never will be.

When we start to say things like the white boys are disadvantaged too, I get whiffs of "All lives matter". Just because more than one group is disadvantaged, that doesn't negate the disadvantages that the group that are subject to this report are subject to. Trying to move the discussion onto the problems suffered by other groups is just deflection.

Yes, white boys from certain backgrounds are disadvantaged. Dos that mean we can't talk about the black ones who are? Does that mean we need to ignore that? Of course not.

I grew up in the sixties. Didn't have an inside toilet till I was 5. Had a nice life though. That doesn't mean that I can't see what discrimination black people have to suffer in the UK today.

By the way - what colour was Lennon's Working Class Hero? I don't remember him saying.

Well if you listen to Owen Jones I am sure that you could come away with that impression, it's possible the discussion is much more nuanced than that.