The working classes just aren't very bright so have no chance of bettering themselves

WW2, it's a shame for them but hopefully things will start becoming 'more normal' soon x

PS the above was from Doodledog and the system failed to copy in her name.

It should be an absolute right to have a chance at university in the sixth richest country in the world.

It is so depressing when something as fundamental as this is always discussed in terms of cost. It isn't going to be cost neutral, but nothing is. If we all contribute tax at a suitable rate, however, and tax evasion is viewed in the same way as tax avoidance and benefit 'scrounging', there should be enough to cover education, health and transport for all, with no need for expensive administration and damage to the life chances of those whose parents earn too much or too little.

The whole system of viewing citizens in terms of households, rather than individuals should be reviewed, IMO.

Sun 09-May-21 09:52:52The elite in society whose access to culture both high and low is limitless through education, access, affordability etc have frequently sought to deny accessibility to socially control the masses, and what the government is seeking to do by denying fundings for the Arts in all its forms is no different.Absolutely. This sums up what I was trying to say very well.

Same here!

JaneJudge

I'm sure they do it has just been difficult this year too because of covid v work. He has always worked before, even when he was at school

My GS is the same, although he has decided to go to Sussex which is within motoring distance from his home, in order to try not to rack up more debt.

He has always worked and is feeling the pinch lately. There is a government establishment near his home (something to do with the security services and it has a very good high end restaurant where GS has been working in the kitchen) but all closed since lock down.

The old grants system cost money too. Difficult to compare the costs because of the difference in student numbers between then and now.

The point is that the loans themselves actually cost more to administer, and will in the end have a similar cost (or more,) to that of student grants, but they were introduced to convince the public that they weren't paying the costs of students. They are of course, just in a different way. Thats why it's a con

I'm sure they do it has just been difficult this year too because of covid v work. He has always worked before, even when he was at school

JaneJudge

I can tell you, uni students have to rely on their parents! We have to send one of our sons an allowance and top up his student accommodation fee as the loan doesn't cover it. He regularly tells me how much less his allowance is compared to his housemates too <sigh>

They all say that?.

Also, you only have one shot at uni because of the cost unless you come from a wealthier family. That is a lot of pressure on an 18yo who may well have chosen the wrong course

I can tell you, uni students have to rely on their parents! We have to send one of our sons an allowance and top up his student accommodation fee as the loan doesn't cover it. He regularly tells me how much less his allowance is compared to his housemates too <sigh>

I would say that's a very good example of where the views of some dont reflect the views of the traditional labour voters. I am not debating the rights and wrongs of student loans but there is a section of society for whom university is not their destination and who might feel slightly miffed in terms of being expected to contribute to the education of people who will always out earn them. There are obviously complex issues about the value we place on university education as opposed to vocational courses, and the issue that free university education benefits many of those from deprived backgrounds. But is this an issue that would secure votes for labour in the areas they have lost, I dont think so.

Dinahmo

trisher

Students loans are the biggest con trick played on the British public. They efectively give better off students interest free loans and leave poorer students with massive debts.They will in fact never be paid off by many, it's estimated that only 25% of loans will be paid off in full. It would have been cheaper to keep the old grant system which only paid money to those who needed it and better off students were funded by their family.

The interest is 9%. It's only the students who don't pay back the loans who have them interest free.

"Once you leave your course, you'll only repay when your income is above the repayment threshold. The current UK threshold is £27,295 a year, £2,274 a month, or £524 a week. For example, if you earn £2,310 a month before tax, you'll repay £3 a month."
It's a lot less punitive than people think and puts students on a more equal footing IMO. In the past parents weren't always willing or able to make up the grant at least these days students don't have to depend on their parents.

trisher

Students loans are the biggest con trick played on the British public. They efectively give better off students interest free loans and leave poorer students with massive debts.They will in fact never be paid off by many, it's estimated that only 25% of loans will be paid off in full. It would have been cheaper to keep the old grant system which only paid money to those who needed it and better off students were funded by their family.

The interest is 9%. It's only the students who don't pay back the loans who have them interest free.

In the above post, when I say 'tax at source', I mean at a higher rate than now, so that things like health, education and transport can be fairly available to all, and people are not penalised for saving.

My loathing of means testing runs deep, and this is yet another example of its unfairness. Means testing grants for students based on parental income infantilises the students, who are young adults, and puts power in the hands of potentially controlling parents.

When I was a student I knew people whose parents' income was too high for them to get a grant and insisted that the student studied a subject that they (the parents) deemed suitable. Others refused to pay the rent or held that threat over their offspring if they did not comply with their rules, even away from home.

Far better, as I say pretty much every time means testing is suggested as a 'fair' way of doing things, to tax income at source (including inheritance and other unearned income) and then let people spend their money how they wish. Obliging some parents to pay for their children after they have already paid tax and may have other calls on their income is unfair when others get it free, and it can lead to the problems I describe above.

I am firmly in support of all education being free at point of study, with grants available to pay for rent and basic living expenses - a lot of the cost will come back via taxation in the long run anyway. This would change the dynamic between students and lecturers from customer/service provider back to student/educator, and this would work to everyone's benefit.

The current system means that everything is driven by the Student Satisfaction Survey, which is asking people to rate their courses before they have put their learning into any sort of practice, and basically asking if the course was worth £9k a year, which is impossible for a 20 year old to know.

As an aside, I would support a system that found a way to ensure that all graduates worked and paid tax and NI for a length of time - it is for those with more knowledge of economics than me (ie anyone!) to determine how long - or pay the money back, in the way that teacher training courses do, but I have no idea how this could work in practice, and accept that it probably wouldn't.

Students loans are the biggest con trick played on the British public. They efectively give better off students interest free loans and leave poorer students with massive debts.They will in fact never be paid off by many, it's estimated that only 25% of loans will be paid off in full. It would have been cheaper to keep the old grant system which only paid money to those who needed it and better off students were funded by their family.

They will have the debt when they leave uni but no one is going to be forcing them to get a job with a large enough salary to repay it. There is an informative article on money saving expert about this. The loan doesn't affect their credit rating.

I don't agree that they are at a severe disadvantage because they will have received an education that should improve their lives in one way or another - whether it leads to high paid employment or some lower paid, but possibly more fulfilling work.

I have clients who didn't start to pay off their student loans until well into their thirties, or even forties.

Dinahmo, you seem to forget that many university students get help from their family. It may just be a bag of groceries every few weeks, but it could be that parents and grandparents can pay enough for the student to come out of university with little or debt atall.

This means that a student without help coming out of university with a £50,000 debt is at a severe disadvantage compared with other students who have somesort of help and support from their family and the amount they need to borrow will stop many applying.

I think we should be putting far more money into expanding the Open University so that that is an option for 18 year olds. They would end up with some debt but could work their way through college and even begin their careers. DD recently completed a degree in STEM subjects and got a job using her degree (and her previous career in the media) before she had even completed it.

I have a feeling of déjà vu !

Our Local District Council has 82 Liberal Democrats, 14 Conservatives, 5 Independents and 1 Green Councillor.

What Labour Party???

Going back to Arts education.

The Arts play a large part in the economy in a variety of ways. I can remember when graduates from the RCA went to work as designers in the Italian and German car industries and also in the European fashion houses. Admittedly those particular young people didn't bring money into the economy but for a long time we have had excellent fashion designers who are renowned. Two examples of this are Bruce Oldfield and Ossie Clark. (Both from poor backgrounds)

Having some knowledge of the Arts is usually useful for interviews because the interviewee is able to converse on a variety of subjects. Even if it is poker! A young friend of mine, at her boyfriend's employers' Christmas party spent some time teaching someone to play poker. She was at college at the time but when, later on she went for an interview with the company, the director interviewing remembered her. As a result of the poker playing she stood out from the crowd and got a job.

Music is another subject which has long disappeared from the schedules I think. It has also brought substantial amounts to the economy. Mick Jagger used to claim that the Stones brought more money into the country that the British car industry and he was probably right.

Regarding student loans - in the 60's 4% went to uni. Now it's 40%. I personally see no reason why students should not take out loans in order for them to further their education. Currently £50,000 is bandied around as the amount of debt that students leave with. They only start repaying when their income reaches £27,295 and only on the income above that. So someone earning £35,000 would pay £793.45. Hardly a large sum to find.

If you earn less that £27,295 you don't pay anything.

There are also maintenance grants, bursaries and several other sources of finance from various charities.

Oh, nothing. I wasn't suggesting that we could.?

Doodledog

Yes, so did we. The problem arises when they outgrow bedtime stories, and when they move away to start their own lives. My daughter knows that she loves stories, and can remember all sorts of detail from the books she was read as a child, but the sheer slog of reading now takes all the pleasure away.

I know, but they’ve had a good grounding, what else can we do as parents/ grandparents?

Yes, so did we. The problem arises when they outgrow bedtime stories, and when they move away to start their own lives. My daughter knows that she loves stories, and can remember all sorts of detail from the books she was read as a child, but the sheer slog of reading now takes all the pleasure away.