The working classes just aren't very bright so have no chance of bettering themselves

Alexa

Whitewavemark wrote:

"It may be more helpful if you think in terms of economic class or position."

I agree.
(WWM)
"But of course we do know that class is not just about the level of income, it come with differing values, expectation and culture."

Yes, but education does change cultural beliefs. There may be residual affection for the native peer or family culture , or there may be traumas associated with native culture, but at least education gives the person choices and interests beyond native culture.

It is quite interesting when looking at culture.

Education can and does undoubtedly introduce other values and cultures to an individual, but I think the question remain just how much of an individuals value system is changed. I think one factor must be how much contact is retained with the culture in which the individual spent her formative years.

Whitewavemark wrote:

"It may be more helpful if you think in terms of economic class or position."

I agree.
(WWM)
"But of course we do know that class is not just about the level of income, it come with differing values, expectation and culture."

Yes, but education does change cultural beliefs. There may be residual affection for the native peer or family culture , or there may be traumas associated with native culture, but at least education gives the person choices and interests beyond native culture.

I don’t agree with him. I taught in an inner city primary. We had some very bright children. It used to upset me that more than not, even the brightest children didn’t go on to university. I loved hearing about the few that did.

But foxie, he is saying that we have reached peak social mobility because the working class stock that remains isn't bright enough to achieve.
I realise that objective found in the title is to dismiss the idea that social mobility hasn't declined, but his remarks about the intelligence of the working class are sufficient to provide a rationale for not improving their educational 'offer'.

I admit that others haven't read it like that..

"First, social mobility in Britain is widespread. The government’s own Social Mobility Commission accepts that 65 per cent of people born to working-class (routine and semi-routine worker) parents are upwardly mobile (more than one-third end up in professional-managerial positions). Just as important, 40 per cent of those with professional-managerial parents fail to retain this status. Changing your social class is more common than staying put."

The above is from the same article. I find some of this man's opinion's deeply unpleasant but in the interests of fairness I think people ought to read the whole article rather than cherry pick.

How many posters on this thread have actually read the article?

I was referring to primary schools as those are the ones I know about. Obviously numbers differ from school to school. Goodness whether 8 to 10 or 12-14 it’s still minimal compared to classes of 32 or 33.

I taught classes of 32 in one of the most deprived areas in Scotland. When I think about what I could have achieved with a class of only twelve. A different world.

I’m working class. I have had a long and successful career as a software developer and have definitely ‘bettered myself’ in terms of income and property. I think that probably means I’m not thick as pig** but I remain working class ?

Grannygangan that is very good then, I don’t think it’s the norm.
I wish I’d taught in a class of only 12 children, that would have made a difference to the stress levels

Gannygangan

I took one of. those online IQ tests.

I think I am the opposite of a genius.

?

Gannygangan

I took one of. those online IQ tests.

I think I am the opposite of a genius.

They are so dodgy, Gannygangan. A lot of it is based on cultural knowledge. Things you know or you don't, but nothing to do with your intelligence.

I took one that said I was at the level of a University Professor.
I thought I would just leave it there and not take any more

I took one of. those online IQ tests.

I think I am the opposite of a genius.

Just checked. They do indeed have on average 24 children per year. But the year is split into 2 classes.

Fees are pretty extortionate.

When I was in a private school I was in a class of 6 for the first 3 years!

No - you have no idea what IQ these children have.

@ Sago. I don't think anyone will have a clue what their IQs are, nor the IQs of the rest of the children of their age, because children don't actually take any IQ tests at any time (unless their parents are trying to get them into junior MENSA)

As I read it, Saunder's thesis is loosely based on a study of children born in 1958. They would have taken the 11plus, which was based on an IQ test. Modern SATs aren't.

I’ve just checked my grandson’s Form 7 list at his independent selective London school. There are 26 of them. There were fewer in the juniors though.

Gannygangan

*Yes I read the 8 - 10 pupils figure. Impossible. The school would ho under financially in no time.
Around 20 per class more like, certainly at secondary.*

Not impossible.

A private school near me has 2 classes in each year, with about 12 children in each class

If the school has a large premises it can do this with ease

Are you absolutely sure that they have only 12 pupils in each class?

It’s possible that they charge huge fees though, in order to achieve such classes. The other option is that not enough people have applied to the school, so they are continuing with very small classes with the hope that things will improve.

Sago

In the City in which I live, the “ working class families” do fairly well sadly we have another class that is rarely addressed.
There are children of parents who have never worked, families that rely on growing and selling cannabis for a living, families that can barely get out of bed in the morning to take their children to school, to have a parent in prison is quite normal and drug taking and crime is part of everyday life. .
These are the children who will have a low IQ.

No - you have no idea what IQ these children have.

What you may be certain that these children on average are low achievers because of the abysmal start that they have in life.

I refer you to Judgejane’s cartoon.

*Yes I read the 8 - 10 pupils figure. Impossible. The school would ho under financially in no time.
Around 20 per class more like, certainly at secondary.*

Not impossible.

A private school near me has 2 classes in each year, with about 12 children in each class

If the school has a large premises it can do this with ease

Lin52

Totally disagree, three of my grandchildren attended private schools, they received a vastly diverse education, one was entered into to private school because the state school was tolerant of bullying, the child is now thriving, back to their normal self. The other two obtained degrees on their own merit, have successful careers , one in Europe, one at home, no networking there. People are happy to knock private education, only seeing what the media want to print, don’t forget the parents still pay taxes towards funding state schools.

Nobody is knocking private education far from it! We recognise the boost it gives children, what we are saying is that some children succeed in spite of all the obstacles, in the state sector.

In the City in which I live, the “ working class families” do fairly well sadly we have another class that is rarely addressed.
There are children of parents who have never worked, families that rely on growing and selling cannabis for a living, families that can barely get out of bed in the morning to take their children to school, to have a parent in prison is quite normal and drug taking and crime is part of everyday life. .
These are the children who will have a low IQ.

god that post doesn't make sense. I think I have menopause brain fog constantly atm, decipher at your peril

The cost of accommodation at university and giving 'pocket money' is what limits a lot of working class children down too. I was quite aghast at how much we had to top up, on top of the grant. It didn't cover the basic accommodation, the only way it would cover it is if it was a shared room! I remember my friends son (state educated, very high achiever - WC family) was offered an unconditional on a very sought after course at a London university and couldn't take it as they couldn't afford the top up for the accommodation costs so he went to a Midlands university instead. These are kids in their 20s now, for timescale purposes

Or a new thread about the misconceptions about private schools!
It wouldn't be fair to derail this thread.

That would be a really nice idea if someone would do it.

maddyone

There certainly are misconceptions about independent schools Ellianne. It was claimed on this thread that private schools have only 8-10 pupils in a class. My four grandchildren all attend independent schools. They are in classes of 18, and 17. Only the one in nursery class has approximately 10-12 children in any one session.

Yes I read the 8 - 10 pupils figure. Impossible. The school would ho under financially in no time.
Around 20 per class more like, certainly at secondary.