The working classes just aren't very bright so have no chance of bettering themselves

There certainly are misconceptions about independent schools Ellianne. It was claimed on this thread that private schools have only 8-10 pupils in a class. My four grandchildren all attend independent schools. They are in classes of 18, and 17. Only the one in nursery class has approximately 10-12 children in any one session.

Maizie, the answer is a definite No!. University education was free in Scotland in the 70s.
However, I did fund my second degree tuition myself!

Yes I agree Ellianne.

MaizieD

^No it doesn’t. My own children achieved very well, chartered accountant/financial manager, barrister, doctor. We were teachers, went to ordinary state schools, the children of working class parents.^

The article wasn't about the prospects of the already achieving middle classes, maddyone It's thesis was that the 'working classes' are where they are because they are not bright enough to achieve and that their children will not achieve either because their breeding makes them also not bright enough to achieve. Though his conclusion is startlingly at odds with his thesis.

It's interesting though that you stress your working class origins. Why should the current generation be any different from yours?

Incidentally, my DD is a university lecturer. Achieved solely via state education.

I understand exactly Maizie. I was addressing a comment which claims privately educated children do well due to networking. I was showing that my children did well without networking. I’m really pleased that your child did well at state school, because all children should be able to access a fantastic state school. In my area unfortunately, the state schools are not excellent, they are very average, so we chose private education. My husband already taught in a local independent school and I taught in a state infant school, and it was difficult financially for us, but we managed.
We did come from working class origins. My father an engineering fitter, my mother a teaching assistant. My father in law was a bricklayer, my mother in law a cleaner.

maddyone

^....she even tried to control my marriage....^

Marydoll oh how this resonates with me. Perhaps we should have a new thread just about this. My mother is 93 years old now, and I do an enormous amount for her, and I love her but........
I do understand this so well.

Or a new thread about the misconceptions about private schools!
It wouldn't be fair to derail this thread.

....she even tried to control my marriage....

Marydoll oh how this resonates with me. Perhaps we should have a new thread just about this. My mother is 93 years old now, and I do an enormous amount for her, and I love her but........
I do understand this so well.

Would you have managed to attend university if it had cost you £27,000*, *Marydoll?

(*or its equivalent at the time)

No it doesn’t. My own children achieved very well, chartered accountant/financial manager, barrister, doctor. We were teachers, went to ordinary state schools, the children of working class parents.

The article wasn't about the prospects of the already achieving middle classes, maddyone It's thesis was that the 'working classes' are where they are because they are not bright enough to achieve and that their children will not achieve either because their breeding makes them also not bright enough to achieve. Though his conclusion is startlingly at odds with his thesis.

It's interesting though that you stress your working class origins. Why should the current generation be any different from yours?

Incidentally, my DD is a university lecturer. Achieved solely via state education.

MaizieD, What about the capable children who cannot overcome their circumstances because they just aren't made that way? Should life be a fight all the time?

I was a shy child, totally lacking in confidence, full of self doubt, ashamed of who I was, always being put down by my mother. Eventually, after years of this, at seventeen I decided enough was enough. She even tried to control my marriage. Initially I wasn't capable of changing things.
To this day, I still carry my mother's legacy, I have my fake confident personna, but deep down, I still doubt myself! On the other hand, the friends and colleagues I have had from well off background had always appeared so confident, because they were brought up to be that way.

I was talking to someone the other day who was telling me that before her (privately educated) son taught in his current private school, he had a Job in a state school where ‘he was actually expected to teach 30 children!). I quietly pointed out that 30 is usual for a state school with max being 33. It was a total revelation to her.
In fee paying schools classes of 8 or 10 are the norm so clearly they all get more time and attention from the staff and the peer group they mix with are generally similar to themselves. It’s a kind of bubble.

siziewoozie all I can say is that DH and myself, both state educated and our two privately educated children have achieved what we achieved without any help from any network, nor was I ever aware of them in my career.

Except, human life is riddled by networks from the person on the village network who can recommend a good electrician, to our builder, who when he needs an extra brickie when demand is high knows someone, who knows someone, who might know a guy.....

DS and I share a hobby - archaeology - except he has gone professional, but when he was at school and needed to do a weeks work experience, I used my membership of the local archaeology network to speak to a professional archaeologist I knew, who put me in touch with someone else who could offer the required experience.

Networking we all do it all the time.

Lin52 well said.

keepingquiet

Private education much extolled by the Tories has very little to do with education and everything to do with networking.

No it doesn’t. My own children achieved very well, chartered accountant/financial manager, barrister, doctor. We were teachers, went to ordinary state schools, the children of working class parents. We struggled to put our children through local independent schools, but we did from age eleven. We did without in order to do this. They achieved well and attended University of Wales, University of Oxford, and University College London. No networking, we didn’t know anyone to network with. Our children achieved well because they were offered better schools and they worked hard, and we were supportive parents. I’m wondering if you actually know anything about independent schools to be honest.

Totally disagree, three of my grandchildren attended private schools, they received a vastly diverse education, one was entered into to private school because the state school was tolerant of bullying, the child is now thriving, back to their normal self. The other two obtained degrees on their own merit, have successful careers , one in Europe, one at home, no networking there. People are happy to knock private education, only seeing what the media want to print, don’t forget the parents still pay taxes towards funding state schools.

JaneJudge

It has reminded me of this I wonder whether Professor Idiot understands simple cartoons

That is so good, JaneJudge, thanks for posting it.

Thanks for this discussion, folks. something to keep me sane today.

I'm glad that others, too, think that the emphasis on cultural determinism has dangerous implications.

I worked in a school in an area of high deprivation. children were encouraged to work hard to achieve academically and many did just that. But, as the HT said sadly, we tell them that academic achievement will bring them success, but what prospects do they actually have in an area where decent jobs are scarce and unemployment is a norm?

I appreciate that people like Marydoll have determinedly risen above their circumstances and achieved through their hard work, but should we really be feeling that the only way to achieve is through struggle and determination. What about the capable children who cannot overcome their circumstances because they just aren't made that way? Should life be a fight all the time?

We were an incredibly lucky generation in many ways, even the non achievers had the prospect of a steady job and security. Now that has been pulled from under people's feet with the destruction of our manufacturing base and the rise of the financial and service industries (I know I'm being simplistic here). I fear that the inevitable austerity policy that will follow the easing of the pandemic will make things worse.

Hmm, it would be pretty interesting to talk with a person who wrote this

He is Emeritus so may be long retired? I reckon the 50% my children inherited must have come from my other half

JaneJudge

It has reminded me of this I wonder whether Professor Idiot understands simple cartoons

?

It has reminded me of this I wonder whether Professor Idiot understands simple cartoons

It's a gift for people who believe in eugenics and blaming the poor for their own poverty.

So how is that different from my interpretation, growstuff?

You have every right to be proud of your achievement Marydoll, and credit that you did this in difficult circumstances. That’s the thing, yes a few people manage to succeed despite financial and other problems but it’s more difficult and requires extra drive to even try.

Whitewavemark2

Frankly from what I have seen at good private schools and the level of resources and assistance given to the children, it would be difficult to fail.

Correct Whitewavemark2 unless a child goes off the rails, as can can happen to some. It is all down to expectations.

Although the old saying "money breeds money" stands for a lot, the skills in confidence, co operation and communication cannot be underestimated.

? * Johnson blockage* oh the vision this causes.

Thanks, Whitewave. I hadn't seen that report.

Whether you feel IQ is totally inherited or not I really don't see how they can "level up" without doing something about wealth inequality. I can't see how this can happen without manipulating the tax system into a fairer one - would the Tories ever do that? I doubt it. I would think about voting for them if they did although I might not be able to get over the Johnson blockage.

Even if we have or were to have equality of opportunity we value some jobs disproportionately to others - whatever the IQ of the person doing them.

But, as you say, if we can blame the poor for their poverty there will always be some on the right - particularly, I feel some who have recently moved to the Conservative bugle, who want to see the "scroungers", etc. as being a cause, not an outcome.

PippaZ

Although the Nazis used the theories of eugenics to argue for the Master Race it was a theory that was popular around the world in the 1930s. Hitler just had an opportunity to carry out weird selective breeding programmes on an industrial scale and those around the world - often upper class (very) and in Universities who backed it just went very quiet after the war.

This guy seems to be saying two different things but then this is an extract of a lengthier book. What I wonder is why Conservative Home published it? What is their intention?

Unclear I think, but there has been a report published by the government about social mobility 2021 which states that a very large majority of people are concerned about the lack of social mobility - 75%

Social mobility is relatively static in the U.K. compared to other developed countries, and we know this is related to wealth inequality.

It is doubtful that the government has any plan to actively intervene to bring greater equality and assist with greater social mobility other than the amorphous plan to “level up”

Quite a good wheeze therefore to blame the poor for their poverty