The working classes just aren't very bright so have no chance of bettering themselves

There isn't a steep cliff edge for the payment of student grants? How would you tax them at source? And whom would you tax - the parents or the students?

Actually, means-tested grants don't really affect the JAM demographic. I guess it depends what you mean by JAMs. Personally, I consider them to be people with a household income no higher than £20-30,000.

This isn't a thread about the fairness of student grants. It's about the so-called working classes. My point is that nobody whose parents are on a low income and are possibly "working class" should be put off higher education by finances.

I think that's a good point, PippaZ.

growstuff It's good that people whose parents are on low incomes get decent grants, but why shouldn't those also go to those whose parents earn a bit more? The students will pay it back in the end, not the parents.

It's yet another case where people who finally improve things a little find that any extra they have is taken away by stealth. Means-testing mainly affects the JAM demographic that we have discussed before.

Even if they were taken out of the equation by a rise in the cut-off level for getting full grants, there would still be people who were trapped in the means-test maze. Get rid of it and tax at source (as I realise that I repeat to the point of tedium - sorry?).

I have just looked back at the OP. I don't think people being very bright or not has as much to do with political persuasion as the suggestion IQ or levels of education might imply.

What I do think that so many people's thinking is untrained so that their arguments are unreasonable, illogical, groundless, unfounded and all in all irrational and this does matter. It's no way to run a country after all.

I don't know if this is anything to do with the past educational methods - perhaps our education stopped people thinking for themselves - but employers use logical reasoning tests; perhaps education should say more about this and psephologists find a way of measuring it.

It annoys me a bit that people keep going on about how unaffordable degrees are. If a student comes from a low income household, the maintenance loan is over £9000. It's feasible to live on that with maybe some working during the holidays or part-time during part-time. OK, so students might look at their contemporaries, who might go out all the time, have a car, have designer clothes, etc. Most students can't afford all that. I also appreciate that university isn't for everybody. However, if somebody does think it is right for them and they would benefit, he/she shouldn't let finances put them off, nor should they let negative comments from others deter them.

Our two went to university when maintenance grants were still given. We did not apply for them because we thought DC were unlikely to get one, or the sum would be very small, we just paid them the full grant money monthly.

DD worked a couple of nights in the local Harvester for most of her degree course to supplement her income, but she was at a university close enough to work vacations as well. DS was much further away and had to do field work for most of the summer vacation, so was unable to earn at all, but he worked through a gap year before he went up so had built up some savings.

Very true trisher but until my state pension started last month, my son's disposable income was higher than mine.

If I were 18 now with good A level results and unemployed with few prospects of finding decent employment, from a financial point of view (if nothing else) I'd try to get on a degree course.

It is definitely the university wrt cost of accommodation.

I don't think finances are the main reason either fwiw but they definitely contribute. My Mum was a single Mum and I was expected to work after I left school. I started my A levels (at a college not school) but I was working so many hours I dropped out of 2 of them and only managed to finish one. Then I had a baby

I do think it allso depends where your DC is at Uni. Newcastle has a huge amount of student accommodation which tends to drive rents down, especially as just now the Asian students who make up a large proportion of the numbers aren't coming in the amounts they once did.

I don't think that finances are the main reason that so-called working class youngsters don't apply for degrees. There's something else holding them back.

My son receives just over £9,000 as a maintenance loan, which is more than the Jobseekers' component of Universal Credit. His rent in a private studio flat takes up about half. He's discovered how to make soup and has always known how to cook pasta and eats raw veggies. He doesn't smoke or drink alcohol. His student debt is eye-watering, but it's unlikely he'll ever pay most of it back.

He is in very basic accommodation btw not the luxury stuff that is available

Growstuff with the loan and grant my son was £600 short for rent for the year, nothing at all left for food. So we had to top it up. Presumably this depends on university. The only on site accommodation that would leave left over money for living expenses was a shared room. This is campus accommodation not private.

My ex husband and I have never given our children any top up on the money available through the grants/loans system and both have managed to live on what was available. It can be done. My daughter always worked in the vacations and saved. My son is just naturally frugal. We couldn't have helped and in some ways I think it's been a good thing for them because they became independent and learnt to stand on their own feet, without thinking they could rely on family money.

Doodledog

* Were you still with your husband doodledog?*
Yes, we have been married for 40 years?
Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

That's why your financial details were required. However, if the parents are divorce or separated, only the details of the resident parent are required. That's how some people worked the system.

* Were you still with your husband doodledog?*
Yes, we have been married for 40 years?
Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

the problem is 'some' unfortunately

Except that while on divorce and separation, some non-resident parents pay no child support, but if a parent is paying child support and still seeing their child, unfair though it may seem, their income should be taken into account.

It is to do with who they usually reside with. Were you still with your husband doodledog? as that isn't clear. If you live together normally they take into account both parents, if you live apart through separation or divorce they only consider the resident parent as they are the person normally financially responsible for them, which I personally think is how it should be

I don't think both parents have to declare their income. My son, who is still at uni, claimed his grant based on his father's income because he usually lives with him and I was never asked to declare mine.

Really? Maybe things have changed since mine went (10 years ago for my daughter). I'm sure I'm remembering right, as I was abroad on business at the time of her typically last minute application, and I had to contact Payroll at my workplace from SE Asia to ask them for details of things like tax codes which, unsurprisingly, I didn't have with me at the time ?. Mr Dog had done as much as he could from his end, but they wouldn't speak to him about my details (he has full access to my bank account, so could have checked online) as they had to have mine direct from me.

Whether grants are repayable or not isn't the point where my thoughts about individual taxation and 'benefits' are concerned. Someone who is expected to contribute all or most of a student's fees/living expenses has more control over them than a parent who doesn't. Probably in most cases that won't matter, but there are times when it absolutely does.

growstuff

Not like my son then. He's discovered Newcastle market and keeps telling me how cheap the veggies are.

Oh it is AMAZING growstuff. One shop in particular (they also have a shop in the west end) has fresh fruit and veg at such low prices. No good taking a list though, just have to get what is cheap.

As a student DD got so obsessed with the local market and bargains at 3.00pm on Saturday afternoon, plus all the reduced items in the supermarket that DS, also a student when visiting treated them both to fish and chips because, as he said, he couldn't stand another meal being told with every mouthful what a bargain the food he was eating had been, followed by details of where it come from and how much it cost.

Twnty five years later she remains a very savvy shopper.

I love a good market

I'm not sure my son even buys underwear. I think he relies on Santa to bring him new socks and pants.