Anyone understand why Johnson is so far ahead in the polls? ( 2)

I’ll look into that. Thanks. But if that’s the case why are voters happy to vote for a party that is making them work for many more years.

MayBee70

I’ll look into that. Thanks. But if that’s the case why are voters happy to vote for a party that is making them work for many more years.

No idea, but since no party has made a promise to reduce pension age if they are elected, or is likely to change that back, it really makes no difference to today’s voters.

Mollygo

MayBee70, I don’t know Chestnut’s reasons, but Gordon Brown’s term in power was disastrous for a lot of current pensioners.

In what way(s)?

Potted history for anybody who is interested. Wales has never been a Tory stronghold, it was previously a Whig/Liberal voting part of the UK before the Labour Party came into being. I think it stems from centuries of oppression by England, which has resulted in a fundamental lack of trust in the Tory Party. In this election, although the Tories have won their highest vote share ever, the increase in the vote share by the Labour Party was higher than the increase by the Tories, at the expense of the Lib Dems and Plaid Cymru.

The people in the Welsh Valleys are deprived because of all the heavy industry in the UK being closed, so employment levels are low. It’s a difficult dilemma for people, these are very strong communities, and people don’t want to leave their families. They are most certainly not ignorant or disinterested, and they don’t see themselves as victims in voting Labour, they do it because they are less self interested than many, and believe in social justice. I’m not from the Valleys myself, but I’m speaking as I find.

Mark Drakeford is an academic not a showman, and the Labour Government here are not of the Corbyn school by any means, in fact there was a big fall out when he was in charge of the party. Welsh Labour has its own identity, which is much more akin to Starmer, although the priorities are clearer. Obviously Tory voters won’t agree, but I think that most people in Wales do trust the government here, they don’t shy away from admitting when they make mistakes, which of course they do like any party in power, there’s no obvious lies, bluster or game playing. They are also good at consensus, because we have part PR, which means the parties have to work together. Wales is a backwater for any Tory Government, so additional funding support is not forthcoming, as in the North of England.

One of the most interesting things about this election from an observer of what’s happening in Wales is that those who voted for Brexit haven’t all defaulted to Tory as they have in England - the light has dawned for a lot of people that Wales is a net loser from Brexit, and support for Labour has actually strengthened, not just held its own.

The people in the Welsh Valleys are deprived because of all the heavy industry in the UK being closed, so employment levels are low. It’s a difficult dilemma for people, these are very strong communities, and people don’t want to leave their families. They are most certainly not ignorant or disinterested, and they don’t see themselves as victims in voting Labour, they do it because they are less self interested than many, and believe in social justice. I’m not from the Valleys myself, but I’m speaking as I find.

I do think that is an important factor. In areas where there have been population changes eg some border counties where people work in England but move to live in Wales, there is less of a tendency to vote Labour.

“Growstuff in what ways”
Family, friends and colleagues experience of reduced pensions. But as I know that won’t be sufficient for you, try this link:
www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-1692321/Has-Labour-really-ransacked-our-pensions.html

MerylStreep I have been to much worse places than Hartlepool. There is high unemployment and pockets of real deprivation, but it could be much worse.

Mollygo

“Growstuff in what ways”
Family, friends and colleagues experience of reduced pensions. But as I know that won’t be sufficient for you, try this link:
www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-1692321/Has-Labour-really-ransacked-our-pensions.html

So how much, in reality, have people actually lost?

PS. That article is nonsense and conflates a number of issues.

I think you’re right Callistemon, the further west you go in Wales the more Welsh it becomes, the border counties have a high percentage of English migrants, and Welsh people who travel to England for work. Border counties are also less cohesive communities as they centre around market towns, with rural industries and farming, so are naturally more wealthy and likely to attract people to vote Tory.

But why do people remember every tiny detail of things that Labour have got wrong but shrug off things that the Conservatives do. I remember finding an old newspaper article which showed that Thatcher was well aware of the threat from Argentina but allowed it to develop into a full blown war. Now, I know the repercussions from that were nowhere near those of the Iraq war but Blair gets all the blame for that even though it was voted for by parliament. And Saddam Hussein was a horrible dictator who was killing his own people in their thousands. You could argue that Blair lied about the weapons of mass destruction but Johnson lies all the time and no one cares. I once nearly voted Conservative because they promised to do something about nursing home fees but, in the end they never did it. Everything they do wrong is shrugged off and yet, with Labour everything sticks.

growstuff

PS. That article is nonsense and conflates a number of issues.

It depended on what you were earning. You may dismiss the article, maybe it isn’t clear enough for you, but for those affected it had a real impact. If you weren’t affected, lucky you. That will explain why you are sceptical.
For my DH it meant a loss of double figures per annum from his projected pension and we are aware of that now.

growstuff

PS. That article is nonsense and conflates a number of issues.

Not only that but could someone explain to me what was so wrong about abolishing tax relief on dividends to pension funds ? It’s a policy choice and less tax paid in one area means more tax paid elsewhere or services reduced.

SW Easy to say if you weren’t affected. I’m sure you could continue your arguments ad infinitum. People often do when they didn’t experience something.
You’ll have to continue it with others who weren’t affected. Enjoy!???

Mollygo

SW Easy to say if you weren’t affected. I’m sure you could continue your arguments ad infinitum. People often do when they didn’t experience something.
You’ll have to continue it with others who weren’t affected. Enjoy!???

No it’s not - I judge whether something is fair or not on it’s wider context not on how it affects me.

vegansrock

Johnson is only popular in England ( not Scotland Wales or NI) , and then not in the big cities. The tories have basically rebranded themselves as the English Nationalists/ Brexit party.

Rather like the Scots Nationalists then?

Chestnut

I would never vote Labour because I don't trust them with the economy. Simple as that.

Spot on.

MayBee70

Chestnut

I would never vote Labour because I don't trust them with the economy. Simple as that.

Can I ask why? I have heard that it’s a myth that Labour leave the economy in a worse state. And the time that Cameron held up that note that was left in the treasury saying theres no money left was despicable because it was just a joke. We will have several years of more austerity cuts and then the Conservatives will miraculously find lots of money with which to promise all sort of things that then won’t even happen. We’ve had how many years of Conservative governments now and yet more and more people are depending on food banks and people are still sleeping on the streets. It took a young footballer to shame the government into caring about hungry children. So why do people seem to think that they’re so successful? What have they done that’s so great? I’d really like to know.

So it was a joke and despicable, what Starmer did in John Lewis was childish and despicable, but of course one thread on here said it was a joke, and give him some slack. Double standards.

Chestnut

I would never vote Labour because I don't trust them with the economy. Simple as that.

And you trust Johnson and other Tories? This is mind boggling. Do you have any idea what they have done to the economy with Brexit? And the fraudulent contracts and massive borrowing?

MayBee70

But why do people remember every tiny detail of things that Labour have got wrong but shrug off things that the Conservatives do. I remember finding an old newspaper article which showed that Thatcher was well aware of the threat from Argentina but allowed it to develop into a full blown war. Now, I know the repercussions from that were nowhere near those of the Iraq war but Blair gets all the blame for that even though it was voted for by parliament. And Saddam Hussein was a horrible dictator who was killing his own people in their thousands. You could argue that Blair lied about the weapons of mass destruction but Johnson lies all the time and no one cares. I once nearly voted Conservative because they promised to do something about nursing home fees but, in the end they never did it. Everything they do wrong is shrugged off and yet, with Labour everything sticks.

Johnson hasn’t taken us into a war, killing millions and leaving us with a legacy of home grown terrorism from Islamists.

He is responsible for the highest covid death rate in Europe imo. But, hey, let’s just forget that shall we. What about Blair helping to bring about peace in Ireland and Yugoslavia? Why do people forget about that. And why did the Conservative party back the Iraq war at the time? Shouldn’t they shoulder some of the blame. How come people in America voted Republican after Bush? Maybe some countries are capable of moving on from certain events and judge parties on the here and now.

So it was a joke and despicable, what Starmer did in John Lewis was childish and despicable, but of course one thread on here said it was a joke, and give him some slack. Double standards.

You're very confused Chestnut.

Cameron holding up a joke left by an outgoing Labour minister and telling everyone it was true, when in fact it was a complete lie, was the despicable act. In fact, it was an old joke which had been made by other departing ministers over the years.

Not at all comparable with Starmer taking the piss out of Johnson's £840 a roll wallpaper and his mistresses reported contempt for John Lewis furnishings.

MayBee70

He is responsible for the highest covid death rate in Europe imo. But, hey, let’s just forget that shall we. What about Blair helping to bring about peace in Ireland and Yugoslavia? Why do people forget about that. And why did the Conservative party back the Iraq war at the time? Shouldn’t they shoulder some of the blame. How come people in America voted Republican after Bush? Maybe some countries are capable of moving on from certain events and judge parties on the here and now.

Haters gonna hate, Maybee, whether justified or not.

MaizieD

^So it was a joke and despicable, what Starmer did in John Lewis was childish and despicable, but of course one thread on here said it was a joke, and give him some slack. Double standards.^

You're very confused Chestnut.

Cameron holding up a joke left by an outgoing Labour minister and telling everyone it was true, when in fact it was a complete lie, was the despicable act. In fact, it was an old joke which had been made by other departing ministers over the years.

Not at all comparable with Starmer taking the piss out of Johnson's £840 a roll wallpaper and his mistresses reported contempt for John Lewis furnishings.

Starter has been banging on about wallpaper on several occasions apart from the stunt in John Lewis. He could have used that time to promote Labour.

MayBee70

He is responsible for the highest covid death rate in Europe imo. But, hey, let’s just forget that shall we. What about Blair helping to bring about peace in Ireland and Yugoslavia? Why do people forget about that. And why did the Conservative party back the Iraq war at the time? Shouldn’t they shoulder some of the blame. How come people in America voted Republican after Bush? Maybe some countries are capable of moving on from certain events and judge parties on the here and now.

He sent U.K. armed forces into Yugoslavia, Mr. Blair liked a war