Anyone understand why Johnson is so far ahead in the polls? ( 2)

How will Rishi do THAT- with Brexit decimating the economy at all levels, including the massive tax earner, Financial Services. Did you see the news today about Freeports and massive tariffs. Rishi and the dreaded, blundering Liz Truss counted on those Free Ports- and have made a total dreadful mess of this.

Regarding A divided Labour in reality

Keir Starmer in suit and tie.
Angela Raynor in leopard print leggings and DM’s in Hartlepool.

One posh. One not.

Did she want to promote ‘I’m one of you’? Or did her dress choice seem disrespectful to the voters?

I suppose in the big sea it ought not to matter what she chooses to wear. Except that somehow it does. She is the Deputy Leader of the Opposition.

Kali2 you will find MaizieD tells us it’s not like a household budget that has to be ‘paid back’.
?
I’m too dim to remember why and how these eye watering figures get resolved. I think it’s about generating jobs, taxes get paid and go into the coffers. We produce our own money.

Is this unlike the EU? They have eye watering debt too.

Glad I’m not Rishi Sunak. I’d never get off to sleep.

Yes, I'd like to know too. Because look at the figures for this Government - and the gigantic borrowing- the likes of which we still do not know, nor the terms.

One fact is clear, the Tories did NOT take Hartlepool- but a divided Labour did. When the 'left' of the party chooses to see Keir Starmer as the enemy, instead of the Tories- and either abstain, vote 'alt' or even Tory - then they have to take responsibility for what happened. The fault lies squarely with them. A divided Labour in reality- results in Tories again and again. Many Labour voters seem either unable, or unwilling- to accept this.

I think you have to have achieve dictator status to be able to go to number 7, Maizie.

1. Expand your power base through nepotism and corruption.
Doing well on this one. Replacing all key 'monitoring' posts with tory friends and donors.

2. Instigate a monopoly on the use of force to curb public protest

Who controls the police and the army?

3. Curry favour by providing public goods efficiently and generously.

Has yet to be seen, but lots of promises. 'Efficiency' might be questionable...

4. Get rid of your political enemies

Heave 'dissenters out of the Party. Manipulate parliamentary procedures to allow no time for scrutiny. Ignore parliamentary conventions and norms.

5. Create and defeat a common enemy.

Hmm... the EU, Remainers, left wingers, refugees, benefit 'scroungers'?

6. Accumulate power by manipulating the hearts and minds of your citizens.

Working on it with the flag hugging and lots of reference to 'world beating'

7. Create an ideology to justify an exalted position.

?

This is frigbtening or should be frightening to anyone who believes that the UK sham democracy is immune to such manipulation.

Mollygo

Do you know what? I’ll let you carry on however you like.
The first Nazi concentration camp was set up in 1933 ( you can Google it).
Hitler didn’t wait for the war to start his campaign against dissenters, and the various groups which didn’t fit in with his view of Aryan supremacy. You want to argue with that, feel free.
You want to postulate that BJ, is a would be dictator, when his rules and decisions many people either ignore or adapt to mean what they want without the repercussions suffered under Hitler, go ahead, I’ll let you.
Nevertheless comparing BJ and the Tories with Hitler and the Nazis is inaccurate and inappropriate and also implies that the population of this country has no freedom or the right to vote for who they want in government.
But if that’s what you want to do, I’ll let you have the last word, though I won’t be reading it.

You are being so extreme in your presentation that everyone had to comply or they felt they risked their lives. How did he get so many people behind him it that is true? Many thought he would change their lives. For many reasons why they were prepared to listen to anyone who would offer that. It is simply not true that all the people did not/could not make a choice. Many, many did. They may have regretted it but this was not an army marching in and taking over as the Russians did later or as Hitler did into the smaller countries. I cannot believe many would agree that everyone was actually against him from the beginning but dare not show it. I simply don't believe that was true historically.

These are the 7 rules to becoming a Dictator:

1. Expand your power base through nepotism and corruption.
2. Instigate a monopoly on the use of force to curb public protest
3. Curry favour by providing public goods efficiently and generously.
4. Get rid of you7. Create an ideology to justify an exalted position.r political enemies
5. Create and defeat a common enemy.
6. Accumulate power by manipulating the hearts and minds of your citizens.

This is the way it happens. Not necessarily in the same order but each one gets ticked off eventually.

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/naturally-selected/201702/7-steps-becoming-dictator

varian

This is the share of the vote according to Sir JohnCurtice

That doesn't look a bit like the reporting we are hearing. I wonder why?

Thanks for putting it on Varian.

Do you know what? I’ll let you carry on however you like.
The first Nazi concentration camp was set up in 1933 ( you can Google it).
Hitler didn’t wait for the war to start his campaign against dissenters, and the various groups which didn’t fit in with his view of Aryan supremacy. You want to argue with that, feel free.
You want to postulate that BJ, is a would be dictator, when his rules and decisions many people either ignore or adapt to mean what they want without the repercussions suffered under Hitler, go ahead, I’ll let you.
Nevertheless comparing BJ and the Tories with Hitler and the Nazis is inaccurate and inappropriate and also implies that the population of this country has no freedom or the right to vote for who they want in government.
But if that’s what you want to do, I’ll let you have the last word, though I won’t be reading it.

This is the share of the vote according to Sir JohnCurtice

Oops. Now it WW2 Calli.
I’ll come back later.

If you were caught breaking the rules, or dissenting, it was not just you who risked death, imprisonment or concentration camps, but you put your whole family in danger.

This was simply not the case until he had fully entrenched himself in power. People wanted him and he did many of the things we see happening now. I appreciate that you think you know but the above was not the truth until he had gained enough power. Just think about it - how could it be while he was working his way up? Other parties didn't set up camps ready for him. There were some early on but the industrial scale didn't happen until he could hide it away to some extent - many of those were not actually in Germany, they were in the countries they took over. That way the insurance companies - who complained about having to pay out so much for so many deaths - didn't have to pay. But this came much later in his career.

As I said I was comparing the making of dictators. They all follow a similar path to enough power to start using fear and punishment - it does not come early on if you are one of the dictator-to-be's followers and people do choose to be.

You asked if we lived there. My father was there when the war crimes trials were going on and later when the countries decided it was better if we didn't treat them as we had in WW1. I was there as a baby and small child and, unless you are very old, I imagine your experience of living there was similar. People didn't talk about it a lot but my father did hear from them that they had thought Hitler would be good for Germany and them. As I said many were bemused by the whole thing by the end. We are both, to some extent, depending on hearsay. But the history of Hitler's rise to power is there for all to see and learn from. These were good people easily led for a variety of reasons, including the fact that the population falling for Dictators at the begining is what happens unless we are very careful, or they would not come to power.

Oops, we're talking lavatories now.
My post was to varian

I'm not sure where you are, the West Country was a good home of Liberals in the old days, then Lib Dems but it seems no longer.
I voted for them in the last GE but they are not thriving generally. Their vote share was down in Wales with just 4.9%.

*As you go in urinals are to the left, partially hidden by a wall. No need to see anything you don't want to. 2 cubicles straight ahead.

It doesn't seen to bother anyone.*

It might if the person in a dress is a bloke with an iPhone that he can sneak under the gap at the bottom when the occupant pulls her knickers down.

This is not 2011. Nick Clegg has gone but the LibDems still thrive.

Our Local District Council has 82 Liberal Democrats, 14 Conservatives, 5 Independents and 1 Green Councillor.

No Labour Councillors!

The Labour Party can only hope to survive is it rejects the confrontational undemocratic FPTP system and promotes PR

I think partly cos he has good Cabinet ministers - Matt H (Health), Rischi (Chancellor), Dominic Raab, not so keen on Piri Patel - but not a bad tea.

varian

A rout ??? What nonsense from the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation

I wasn't joyous although ours got in (and a fat lot of use he proved to be) and yes, it was a rout. Perhaps the Guardian's term a drubbing is preferable.

Losing 748 Council seats in 2011 was nothing to be joyous about

Nick Clegg looked very glum indeed:
Nick Clegg is facing calls from the party's local government chiefs to step down as leader after heavy losses in the English council elections.
The Scots leader quit I think.

I have voted for them since but have given up now.

PippaZ My reply at 14.08 was to your post of 13.48.
You’re right, I should have used BJ instead of a pronoun to make it easier for you to understand.
So . . .
BJ may not have attended meetings or implemented lockdown as soon as he should. I have no problem agreeing with those points, but in Nazi Germany, it wasn’t a case of “the lies were so big that it was difficult to believe they were not true”.
If you were caught breaking the rules, or dissenting, it was not just you who risked death, imprisonment or concentration camps, but you put your whole family in danger.
Thank you, I am perfectly well informed on this matter and it’s effects in my family.
My post is not pro BJ and the Tory party, but anti the inappropriate comparison with Hitler and Nazi Germany.

Our Local District Council has 82 Liberal Democrats, 14 Conservatives, 5 Independents and 1 Green Councillor.

What Labour Party???

PS. I can never understand why these days there are often two washbasins in bathrooms - do people really want to do intimate things with their partner in the same room? And those people who use the loo when their partner is washing?

Mollygo

PippaZ no he didn’t. That’s what I mean about not understanding about Nazi Germany and Hitler. He may not have done what he should, but when rules were issued, people chose whether to ignore or adapt them without fear of death or concentration camp.

I still don't know what the "no he didn't" refers to but I will try and answer what I think the rest is saying Mollygo.

Hitler did not come to power because of "fear of death or concentration camp". That was much later. I have not suggested for one moment that Johnson is at that point. I said I believe he has the makings of a dictator not that he is one.

Initially, Adolf abused the law and manipulated the Reichstag to gain power. There are certainly comparisons there. To understand the actions of the people in Germany at that time you really do need to know about more than the fear of death or concentration camp bit.

Where did all those people come from at the rallies? I remember hearing one man, who had been there, talking on the radio saying that although he knew what Hitler was doing was wrong but he still wanted to belong to that feeling in those crowds. Our move towards the cult of Johnson worries me because of this.

Going around the country to get votes Hitler would say one thing to the farmers -that they would get more for their produce - and another in the towns - that they would pay less. Everywhere he used slogans about the place of Germany - just as Johnson is with his Build Back Better and We Want Our Country Back and other three word slogans that sound good but are all things to all people. It was years into Hitler's upward path before the camps were built and then grew in size and efficiency and were more known about - if people even then believed they were as bad as it seemed and many couldn't - even after they had been shown them. If the atrocity is gross enough it becomes too hard to believe.

You also get the feeding of the notion that there are the deserving and the undeserving - and of course if you backed Hitler you were seen as deserving. Do you think that isn't happening here? There was a man interviewed in Hartlepool who said he would vote Tory because if they put a Tory in they would spend money in their constituency. What sort of country does that make us?

I am very aware of the history of the war Mollygo; it was about people who went with their feelings rather than the brains. They had had an awful time economically. We had made it worse by the harshness of the Treaty of Versailles at the end of WW1. It most certainly not a case that the German people put Hitler into power because they were afraid - that came much later.

On the subject of gender recognition - and public loos. I remember Ally McBeal from way back where they had a unisex cloakroom. In a local town near me in France the cinema has a unisex loo. As you go in urinals are to the left, partially hidden by a wall. No need to see anything you don't want to. 2 cubicles straight ahead.

It doesn't seen to bother anyone.

Quite often, when at motorway services, when cleaning takes place in one designated cloakroom, the displaced are directed to the one of the other sex.

A rout ??? What nonsense from the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation