Universal basic income

rosie1959

UBI does that mean I receive money for doing nothing ?
On top of salary and dividends

I think that your income tax would mop it up.

And, before anyone starts complaining about something for nothing paid for by 'taxpayers', I'd just point out that even people who don't pay income tax are taxpayers; nearly everything we purchase has a tax element.

I could also point out that tax doesn't fund government spending... zzzzzzz

As far as I can see you are not deflecting Maizie. See my last post, first main paragraph (you don't want me repeating myself )

In areas where rental prices are low, the rents would probably shoot up to the level set and areas where the rents are high would cause financial chaos for anybody who has bought properties with buy to let mortgages.

So, in effect, you are saying that a number of landlords are grasping opportunists?

As far as I can see, rents tend to be based on what the market will bear. Is there a difference in landlord's costs which make them far higher in some areas? Or is it just scarcity that inflates rents?

(Sorry to deflect from UBI, which I think is a perfectly reasonable strategy)

UBI does that mean I receive money for doing nothing ?
On top of salary and dividends

Just a quick note about a few of my thoughts.

In my opinion you will not make the cost of housing easier to meet until you have enough housing. Anything where you maintain a shortage will keep prices high. As far as I can see the majority of house building taking place is for large/expensive properties. However, this cannot, as far as I can see, be solved by UBI which is why I suggest it will have to be outside the consideration for the amount UBI needs to be so you can live on it, free of the state - initially.

The same goes for Council Tax. I believe the only way it can be incorporated - and I believe it should be as it adds to our responsibility as citizens - is if it becomes a local income tax. Until then I believe it will have to be outside UBI, sadly.

I would say the same applies to NI - until we get rid of this strange tax on work - it needs to be outside the amount and claimed although I would like to see it rolled into the tax system and pensions paid as UBI. In some systems of UBI it has been suggested that there are different amounts at different stages of life - including UBI for children.

This is all just my opinion. Others will approach this from a different angle with different knowledge to me and, although I am prepared to contribute what I have learned over the years because I believe in UBI as a move forward as a civilised community meeting the needs of a very different society to that which has gone before.

So questions such as "Do you know how little working age benefits are?" are just too personal and unnecessary. Why do I need to "know"? I am not setting the level. What we need is to set a figure for UBI which is enough to live on with no other claim on the state (eventually) and knowing that all state claims on the person have been taken into account with a minimum number of exceptions until those have been worked through.

I can only guess, suggest, read and learn - the same as anyone interested in this.

But Doodledog, having houses on the market for sale doesn't help people who can't get a mortgage and are forced to rent.

I'm not sure how you could cap the rental levels without it causing chaos. In areas where rental prices are low, the rents would probably shoot up to the level set and areas where the rents are high would cause financial chaos for anybody who has bought properties with buy to let mortgages. We are in the lucky position where we bought our properties outright but the costs of running them are high, especially now the electrical rules have kicked in. We only ever charged the LA rental amount because you take food out of people's mouths if you charge more than HB allows. I would like to see a fairer system whereby people who fall on hard times and need benefits do not pay rent out of their food money. It has always seemed harsh to tenants that if they have an extra room but fall on hard times, their rent benefit will be reduced without being given any time to change their living circumstances.
PippaZ, yes it was my opinion...I thought that was allowed on these threads.

growstuff

How would you cap housing costs?

Housing benefits are already capped, but rents have continued to rise.

I think I mean capping rents. If there weren't such profits to be made, rents would have to come down, or landlords would sell, so putting more houses onto the market and prices would fall.

It is wrong that young people can't afford to buy because their rents are so high that they can't save, and that housing costs in some parts of the country are so much higher than in others. People in the SE can make a fortune by doing nothing, whilst those in the regions have their geographic mobility limited bu the differentials, and are stuck in low wage/low capital lives. Parents in the SE* can release equity from their houses to fund education and other experiences for their children that are way out of the reach of people doing the same jobs in other areas.

If we are looking at 'levelling up' and introducing UBI, then why not grasp the nettle now, and cap rents? It could be done if there were a will - just bring in a law saying that they can't be above £x per sq metre, or some other measure. When everything else is up in the air, and landlords would be richer to the tune of £250 a week with UBI, it could make things fairer all round?

*and other property price 'hotspots'.

Is that what you were saying. I misread it then. I'm tired and will stop posting now.

Do you know how little working age benefits are?

They are less than half the new state pension.

That's what needs sorting.

£240 a week works out at (if my maths is right) at £12,480 a year. I think this is more than either the basic new state pension or the old state pension plus Pension Guarantee Benefit. The new pension will outstrip the old + Pension Guarantee increasingly year by year. The figure I quoted was only an example but you are right, it would have to be more than that if it were to cover the additional benefits that someone only getting that income might get.

It's worth remembering that I do not work in this area nor do I have any specialist knowledge, just a long term interest in it. My figures are not those others may chose to use if they go ahead with this.

Brilliant idea. I’m all for it. If done properly it could revolutionise our lives. Read Rutger Bergman.

How are working age people expected to survive on less than half the full state pension?

Pippa People could have more control of their lives in there were a recognition that the level of benefits (especially working age benefits) are totally inadequate.

How would you cap housing costs?

Housing benefits are already capped, but rents have continued to rise.

It's difficult Doodledog but to me putting people back in charge of their own lives would be such a step forward.

Sorry - I wrote that before reading your points (by husband arrived with dinner, and I stopped half way through my post ?). I will go back and read the last few posts, and apologise in advance if I have repeated anything that has already been said, or appear to have ignored points that have been made.

Maybe if housing costs were capped if would reduce the gap between the SE and the rest of the country?

Bringing in something as radically different as this is pretty much guaranteed to leave casualties, though. Particularly for people in later life, who have gone through life with the current situation, and 'played by the rules' until it is too late to start again with new ones.

I agree that to be fair it needs to be thought through for everybody, but these things never are. I'm not even sure if they can be, really, given that there are always so many differences in circumstances, and that people have done what seemed right in the circumstances at various stages of their lives, and then find that if they hadn't done x (which seemed the best way at the time, and may have involved sacrifice) they would have benefited under the new system. Maybe doing what is best for the greatest number is the way forward?

growstuff

Pippa Yes, you did mention that housing costs are an issue. Even now with state pension, my rent and council tax is nearly two thirds of my income - so it's a big issue!

My concern is that some bright spark thinks UBI is in theory a wonderful idea, but doesn't do modelling for everybody who would be affected. I've seen so many times that changes are made and minority groups (maybe just a few hundred thousand) are ignored.

Housing in the UK is a huge issue and I would rather somebody sorts something out before introducing something like UBI.

Really good points growstuff and a lot of work to get there but I think it's worth it. It will be interesting to see how the trial in Wales goes. I think Mark Drakeford agrees with you.

Mr Drakeford said a pilot would "need to be carefully designed to make sure that it is genuinely adding income for the group of people we are able to work with.

He added: "It'll have to be a pilot because we don't have all the powers in our own hands to do it on our own.

It'll have to be carefully crafted to make sure that it is affordable and that it does it within the powers available to the Senedd.

Doodledog The Local Housing Allowance cap means that landlords can't benefit from the way benefits are paid. The way UC is calculated (or was before Covid) also means that very few people in paid employment actually qualify for it anyway. The old system whereby employers could get away with paying poverty wages no longer exists for the majority. The real problem for most people claiming benefits is that they are are expected to live on £73pw before housing costs. In most cases, they actually receive less because they are expected to contribute towards housing costs.

I think that, along with care, social housing has been put in the "too difficult" box far to often Doodledog and, without decent social housing there will always be pressure on the private lettings market. This is why I think it will have to remain outside the UBI.

Pippa Yes, you did mention that housing costs are an issue. Even now with state pension, my rent and council tax is nearly two thirds of my income - so it's a big issue!

My concern is that some bright spark thinks UBI is in theory a wonderful idea, but doesn't do modelling for everybody who would be affected. I've seen so many times that changes are made and minority groups (maybe just a few hundred thousand) are ignored.

Housing in the UK is a huge issue and I would rather somebody sorts something out before introducing something like UBI.

I think it would need to be very careful to ensure that people like unscrupulous landlords can't benefit from the fact that people are paid after housing costs, and put up rents (or basically have them paid for by taxpayers), and that employers don't cut wages to compensate for the fact that people will get a basic amount whether they work or not.

Tax credits were guilty of this, I think. The taxpayer subsidised employers' profits because workers on low incomes could claim back money in credits. I always thought that this was a disgrace, as it trapped the workers in poverty, and gave even more profit to people who did not pay their staff decent wages. To make matters worse, this subsidy would often come from the pockets of people on low wages themselves.

As housing costs (and profits) vary so much across the country, they would have to be considered very carefully before adding them to the equation, I think.

Sorry growstuff, I thought I had said somewhere that housing is an issue that would have, as things are at the moment, to remain over and above UBI in my opinion.

The way that housing is at the moment (and I have no answer to how we can improve it but we need to find one) I can't see how we could find a way that would take it into account. £240 is where Personal Tax Allowance starts so someone thinks we need at least that to live on. The other thing that would have to change - in my mind - would be council tax but I have always thought that should be a local income tax. It is complicated. My daughter has just sent me a link to an article on the trials proposed in Wales. It will be interesting to see what they find. She knows I'm a bit obsessed with it. I think we could improve lives and, once it's going I believe it would cost less - no sending out letters to tell you your money is coming at Christmas for a start or having a bank of people to deal with "changes to circumstances", etc.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-57120354

Pippa Although I now have my state pension, on that basis I would have been poorer than I was before my pension started. I had been claiming UC, which worked out that I needed a minimum of £271pw to live (I pay rent).

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which campaigns against poverty, has done its sums and calculated that the poorest would actually end up poorer with UBI. I haven't looked into the details, but I do respect the JRF.